After Gilgamesh ,Who Is The Most Powerful Servant ?

Alright .Let's just clear a few things up .My point is basically that many of the counters proposed will not apply in a proper face off .I.e one on one with no funny feelings messing things up .Characters at their most focused and determined .Hence my earlier post :

Well yeah I guess ,and I did make room for who else the people would lose to in my OP but counters generally come to play under extreme situations .As you say Nasu wouldn't want the fights to take on a normal ,boring path and so he gives small handicaps/advantages which can overturn the entire fight .

Maybe I worded it in a slightly tricky way but what I meant was having people square it off with the intention of winning using all they have .Things like Saber's feelings for Shirou cannot come into play since when comparing power levels and how they can be countered they are unnecessary .This is not Saber Vs Shirou in HF .This is simply Saber Vs Shirou .If we are talking about counters then apart from facts regarding abilities encountered in the source material ,nothing else matters .It's a simple matchup .There’s no reason to bring Saber’s feelings for him into account .We don’t do that when comparing two characters from different series .Granted they might never have met in those cases but when dealing with power levels you don’t hear people saying “oh but he has feelings for he so she’ll win” .You might as well say that in a fight between Shiki and Arcuied in Tsuki ,Shiki or Arcuied will lose since they have feelings for each other .That’s completely disregarding what matchup battles are for .Power Vs Power not Power-Feelings Vs **Power-Feelings .This applies to all your replies on Saber Vs Shirou and her feelings for him .

So it's suddenly losing like that is something that is exclusive to Gilgamesh? The whole Nasuverse disagrees with you

As I've said numerous times Gilgamesh is tolerable since he receives a large amount of exposition and he is downright recognizable by his pride .Why do you think many Zero fans love the guy ?Is it because he's particularly deep ?Is it because he's a tortured antagonist ?No .It's because he says stuff like "don't look at me you mongrel" and throws tantrums when people touch his weapons .He is identified by pride and egoism .He isn't like some other villain who comes along and then has Nasu pull a trick saying he lost because he was proud at the last moment .Pride is practically Gilgamesh .It isn't a contradiction in this case as no one else has it on his level .

This is false

Examples please .

You make it seem like Archer is invincible...he isn't though

I don't know how I'm making it seem like anything .He's dangerous because he has a host of NPs which can be applied to numerous situations .His versatility is what makes him so dangerous .He can come up with counters to many situations as such I termed him a counter machine .

I don't believe I ever said that

This isn't a matter of you saying that .If you list examples of proper counters happening and include Alter Vs Shirou then you've said that Shirou>Alter in a fight .It's the natural implication .

She handicapped herself by her own decision just like Gil handicapped himself by not taking Shirou seriously in UBW

Regardless of whether Gil had just met Shirou or not he would have handicapped himself anyways .I don't see Alter-chan doing that to someone she hasn't met .You cannot call that a proper counter .

You haven't read Tsuki, have you? Nero Chaos is arrogant as hell, it's why he toyed with Shiki and ended up dying

Only the Arcuied route tbh .If it's how you say it is then that's that I suppose .

Saber, in F/SN and F/Z ,is the incomplete servant since she is still alive the one from F/GO isn't though, she is already a proper servant, a copy made from her data within the Throne of Heroes; she could have Avalon as well but it would break the game if she used it alongside Excalibur, just like Herk's God Hand would break it as well

Yeah .Thanks .But apart from the doubt of whether or not FGO is actual canon there's a question .Why would we refer to two different types of Sabers in one post ?We were talking about Fsn Saber Alter .Bringing up the Saber from another route is alright but then now we're talking GO Saber ?

She held back on her own accord due to her desire and personality, it's pratically the same as Gil jobbing to Shirou in UBW

Yeah she underestimated him but it isn't the same .Like I said earlier Gil would have acted the same way even if he hadn't met Shirou beforehand .Alter on the other had would have instantly and mercilessly rekt him to pieces .If I were to simulate a match between Alter and Shirou using their tendencies/abilities ,time spent together and how close they are to each other are not included .

I never said that, but Alter being stronger than Shirou doesn't means Shirou can' t beat her, especially because even as Alter, Saber still has a soft spot for Shirou and deliberately held back her NP to give him a chance in the fight

There is little to no chance of Shirou beating Alter if she didn't know him .He would be dead from the first two strikes .

It was a proper fight though. Saber held back because she wanted to, it is due to her character just like Gil's arrogance made him hold back against a mere human in the final battle of UBW, it's not difficult to understand that

Like I said if she wanted to she'd excaliblast him out of that cave .She had no pride stopping her like Gilgamesh .It was just a wish to have a final battle with him .A wish to have a final sword fight with him .Yeah she didn't see herself losing and so she lost but it cannot count .

Here's the contradiction, if you agree with teh Gil situation n UBW why the problem in understanding the other situations within the series?

Because Gil is vastly different in terms of how much pride he has .Other people can get serious when they realize that things aren’t going to be as easy as they thought and that their safety margin is falling apart but Gil is literally unable to do that .

Alright .Let's just clear a few things up .My point is basically that many of the counters proposed will not apply in a proper face off .I.e one on one with no funny feelings messing things up .Characters at their most focused and determined .Hence my earlier post

Well yeah I guess ,and I did make room for who else the people would lose to in my OP but counters generally come to play under extreme situations .As you say Nasu wouldn't want the fights to take on a normal ,boring path and so he gives small handicaps/advantages which can overturn the entire fight .

Maybe I worded it in a slightly tricky way but what I meant was having people square it off with the intention of winning using all they have .Things like Saber's feelings for Shirou cannot come into play since when comparing powerlevels and how they can be countered that's unnecessary .This is not Saber Vs Shirou in HF .This is simply Saber Vs Shirou .If we are talking about counters then apart from facts regarding abilities encountered in the source material ,nothing else matters .It's a simple matchup .

So it's suddenly losing like that is something that is exclusive to Gilgamesh? The whole Nasuverse disagrees with you

As I've said numerous times Gilgamesh is tolerable since he receives a large amount of exposition and he is downright recognizable by his pride .Why do you think many Zero fans love the guy ?Is it because he's particularly deep ?Is it because he's a tortured antagonist ?No .It's because he says stuff like "don't look at me you mongrel" and throws tantrums when people touch his weapons .He is identified by pride and egoism .He isn't like some other villain who comes along and then has Nasu pull a trick saying he lost because he was proud at the last moment .Pride is practically Gilgamesh .It isn't a contradiction in this case as no one else has it on his level .

This is false

Examples please .

You make it seem like Archer is invincible...he isn't though

I don't know how I'm making it seem like anything .He's dangerous because he has a host of NPs which can be applied to numerous situations .His versatility is what makes him so dangerous .He can come up with counters to many situations as such I termed him a counter machine .

I don't believe I ever said that

This isn't a matter of you saying that .If you list examples of proper counters happening and include Alter Vs Shirou then you've said that Shirou>Alter in a fight .It's the natural implication .

She handicapped herself by her own decision just like Gil handicapped himself by not taking Shirou seriously in UBW

Regardless of whether Gil had just met Shirou or not he would have handicapped himself anyways .I don't see Alter-chan doing that to someone she hasn't met .You cannot call that a proper counter .

You haven't read Tsuki, have you? Nero Chaos is arrogant as hell, it's why he toyed with Shiki and ended up dying

Only the Arcuied route tbh .If it's how you say it is then that's that I suppose .

/r/fatestaynight Thread Parent