I am Don Braegger - I also voted Opposed - AMA

I apologize for the length, but please indulge me. I want to address you points and then give you a few of my own. By the way, what is your name? Mine is Mark (AKA Colorado Road King – bicycling). HA!

I am really sorry for the problems you and your family have experienced with the Church. For one who believes this organization contains the Lord’s Gospel and Priesthood Authority restored to the earth, there should never be any problems but unfortunately there have been, is, and will be until Christ returns. After all, there was Judas Iscariot, an Apostle. Judas never should have betrayed the Savior but he did and yet He was an Apostle and was with the Savior DAILY. How is that possible? Well, it happened so it must be possible and today's Church is no exception. So, mistakes (intentional or unintentional) have and will continue to happen. Suffice to say, I am sorry and it should never be the case. I sincerely wish your family had never experienced the pain at the hands of one (or many, parents included) who is (are) an avowed follower(s) of Christ. Just ask Christ how He felt about Judas’ betrayal. Matt. 26:24. Personally, I do not view you as "exmos" or "Judases". You have a grievance and I recognize it as real. I would never belittle that.

Also, I don't give one bleep about what traditional Christianity believes and what they think about what Mormons believe. This coming from people who have chosen to follow a God as defined by some Roman Emperor and a bunch of Bishops who spent days on end fighting and debating on a definition of God solely in effort to save the Roman Empire! REALLY! That’s the God in whom I should believe in order to be a REAL Christian?! I’d rather be an atheist than follow that tripe. You think for one second I am idiot enough to let them define what is what is not a Christian based on the origin of their beliefs? Grace versus works; the Holy Trinity versus Three Separate but Distinct Beings. Is that the essence of Christianity? If it is, then I want no part in it.

Instead, here’s the Christianity in which I believe – Service and Christ-like love. So, for as much as you HATE the purpose of ward councils and their “intervening” and despite what you might believe of their motives, I have sat in ward councils and this is what I have heard FOR YEARS – “If you love me, feed my lambs”. OK, so they want to reactivate members and proselyte the Gospel. So what? If these Mormons are misguided, at least they try to show their Christianity via service. Never once have I heard – “let’s reactivate Jim-Bob just so we can continue to lie to him because the Church is falling apart – defections all around, Pres Monson is a liar, Elder Uchtdorf has great hair but he’s a liar too, John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, Don Braegger, Any Opposed, Ordain Women, cats and dogs living together!! Oh my! We better lie like mad and call it Christ-like volunteer service or they will find us out.” NO!! Come on! You're smarter than that. Come up with something better.

So, why serve; why have ward council? Because those people who try to live Christ-like lives the best they know how believe they are under the same spiritual mandate and injunction that Christ issued to Peter – “If you love me, feed my lambs.” – John 21:15. They might follow a bunch of liars but at least they love their fellow man and woman. THAT is the sole purpose of those intervening and nefarious ward councils. You don’t get to define their purpose and their motives. I’ve been there; I know.

Now, to my points:

As far as my comment to “let the liars lie” – the message in that comment is: despite your best efforts to expose the lies and hypocrisy of the Church Leadership, you will not persuade all, or even a majority, of us to leave or convince us that our Church leaders are liars. Our hearts and minds (yes MINDS – we can think for ourselves too, you know), tell us otherwise. Oh, you will persuade some of the rightness of your cause and they will leave the Church, and, by the same token, you will inadvertently convince others that the Church contains the Lord’s Gospel and Priesthood authority on earth and they will get off the fence and joint the fight with us. I won’t say it is a zero-sum game but you have to know some will come your way and some will come “this” way. After all, for 185 years, people with your perspective, have tried to prove the Church false and destroy it and in the end, the Church is still here and it is growing. Of course, there will always be defections (I refer you back to Judas) but the Church will still be here and people will still believe. So, in the end, IF (again, ASSUMING) you are right and we are wrong, the Lord will have to fix it. Maybe He is through you and those on your side. Wouldn't that be a shock to my side?! I’ll give you that as a possibility. However, my heart and MIND tell me otherwise.

So, what do we do about it? We may have to just agree to disagree. So, if you feel your efforts will bear fruit, then I wish you and yours Godspeed. Do the best you can and I will support your God-given right to wage war against the Church and its leaders. I don’t agree with your perspective or premise but I support your right to fight and exercise your God-given will and freedom to choose.

All I ask is that you, as a fellow Christian, respect my right and my choices and those who honestly believe as I do just as we support your right to follow Christ and fight against us as you do. Are there those of us who are closed-minded and bigoted? I’d answer this way – “Does a bear fart in the woods?” The answer to both questions is a resounding “YES”. I just say keep the emotion out of it and avoid personal criticism.

Instead, hit back with facts – IRREFUTABLE facts. Hit as hard as you can but stick to IRREFUTABLE facts. If Presidents Monson, Eyring and Uchtdorf are liars, prove it. Don’t just say they are liars based on your interpretations of events. Prove it. All you and yours have done is give your interpretation of motives and assessment of articles as the “Church attempting to clean up its image” and “come out of its dirty past”. Maybe. But you can’t prove that any more than I can to the contrary. So, prove to me Joseph Smith lied and President Monson is following in his supposed-hypocritical footsteps. I don’t want words from a defected Mormon who is upset because the Church won’t ordain women to the Priesthood or won’t sanction gay marriage or stifles open dialogue or Joseph Smith didn't translate ancient papyrus or DNA testing shows the Book of Mormon to be a fraud or on and on an on. I want FACTS! For every detail you have that supports your point, I have details to support mine. So facts – IRREFUTABLE, INCONTESTABLE, UNDENIABLE facts. Show me the lies then we can actually have a cogent discussion. Until then it’s “he said, she said”.

In the final analysis, if we are right or if we are wrong, God will have to sort that out. You have to agree with that. When I say, “let them lie”, I am not saying to do so as a way to let them (the leadership) off the hook and get away with lies, deceit, and hypocrisy. If you feel they are wrong and have lied and continue to lie, then fight and fight hard but do so with facts. They are big boys. They can handle it.

Conclusion: Regardless of your best efforts or mine, this is a 185-yr-old fight (actually longer if you accept the Biblical teaching of the time before there was time) so you have to admit that God will have to sort this one out. So, from my vantage point, I will share the Gospel and try to bring others into the faith while you and yours will share your beliefs and try to persuade others to the contrary. At some point, the Savior will have to intervene and fix whatever I or YOU or anyone else has broken. All I ask is that you avoid personally criticizing those of us who believe what we believe and focus your efforts on the Leadership with facts. Your fight is with them, not us.

There are some of us who are so firm in our faith that we are secure enough to recognize that you and yours are well within your rights and will support your freedom to exercise your God-given right to your personal faith and war against the Church. See Article of Faith 11. Look, Joseph Smith might have been the most virulent liar God ever sent to earth. In fact, God may even regret that He had a son named Joseph Smith. Heavens, Joseph Smith might actually make seem Judas Iscariot a saint. Who knows? Regardless, you have to acknowledge Joseph got this one right and I support it as a declaration of the right YOU and anyone else has who chooses to fight against the church.

Parting Words: Since before we were born, there has been a fight for the souls of the children of God. Your fight is not new; the battlefield has merely changed but the fight is the same. Neither you nor I have power enough to win, despite our best efforts. All we have is the right to do is fight. So I say, let the war rage on! Fight on dear brother! FIGHT ON!!

God bless and I’ll see you at the judgement bar and, with you, I’ll bow my knee before the Savior! Mark

/r/exmormon Thread Parent