No, I am leading to another point. If kids need a conductor, at what point do they not need one? High School? College? The moment they graduate? When special needs adults come together as amateurs?

I think that you imagine that there is a special moment that makes someone able to be "expert" at playing in an orchestra. And I would assert that people's competence in an orchestra is not any difference than people's competence in an blue collar assembly line. In fact, I assert that the top musicians are especially dysfunctional people.

To someone listening to an orchestra, you might hear, "wow, i would give my right hand to be able to play like that." But to the people in the orchestra, you hear "Its a job. That's all." These people need someone to look up to or they tweak. But I yeah, I guess I won't be able to convince you until you've tried to play in an orchestra without a conductor. Maybe someone else can put forth better arguments than I :)