Thanks for the reply. That piece by Churchill was an interesting read. So he believed there were Jewish conspiracies directed to subversion? Interesting, never knew that.

As for the rest of the reply - I like your opinions. They seem well reasoned out and gives new angles that I didn't think about before.

But I think we are still not really connecting on the main theme. From what you post I sense this angle of analysis about how some actions are good or bad for Israel from the political perspective. Where we differ is that I view Israel as a state much more influenced by religion rather than secularism or international laws. And from that stance all the actions that you measure as being good or bad for Israel I simply try to look how those actions reflect on their religious texts.

And looking through this religious prism an interesting picture appears. For example they hold on to some land for "defense purposes" but the same land is a part of "Greater Israel" according to some Zionist interpretation of the texts. That is an interesting coincidence in my opinion.

A lot of posters here promote this formula: high Jewish IQ + ethnocentrism = World affairs today. For me this does not explain how the Jewish people managed to get Israel after the war (when they didn't have any state in the first place), established a law that is deeply tied the Torah, fought to have the whole of Jerusalem for themselves, etc.

On the second though - are you saying that Zionists and the "Jews promoting Marxism in the west" are separate groups? To me this sounds a bit more conspiracy-theoretic than simply thinking about Zionism alone. With all that I wrote above I always thought only about Zionists as this pervasive "evil" group and "Orthodox Jews" as the "good side". Where would you place the third group here? Atheists who oppose Western hierarchies because they feel they would be safer in more diverse societies?