Fees-free tertiary education: right problem, wrong answer? | Infometrics

This isn't my opinion, though.... Haha you are a funny dude. Also the policy wasn't democratically instituted, though according to MMP the party was. The policy was not open to public referendum...

Three things. One, that is not true. Two, you are again showing that you are taking an American point of view and not appreciating how New Zealand society...

Yeah obviously I have no idea how New Zealand society works living here since year 9 and going through uni here as well ("But FrazaLaza please stop the personal attacks lol). Also I know how MMP works thanks. Yeah the Nat's didn't get a majority but MMP still has one major flaw; a single party with relatively little seats gets to decide for everyone. No system is perfect but that is a major flaw. Theoretically ACT could decide an election in a certain scenario. Bet no one would like that.

The statement that people support free tertiary education is based on the many, many surveys...

Erm okay, many many surveys that I have not heard off. A YUGE number. Okay yeah I'm sure stuff.co.nz walking around the streets of Auckland can be considered a good reliable sample /s

And again, I have to come back to the American thing. Listing off your list of beliefs as if anyone cares..

I assume you have friends yes? Or family? Or co-workers? They express their beliefs all the time if they are human. It might be minor things like their reasons for liking or not liking someone or something not politics (Kiwis do not like politics all the time yes) however, if you spend time with anyone they will express beliefs. As for anyone caring. It depends on the friends you keep. Generalizing all Kiwis as not caring about your beliefs is not productive. Kiwi's are people, some people wish to engage and be open minded others do not give a stuff.

My beliefs are not "static" otherwise I would not be having this "debate". They currently have an initial state which is a bit different. They can be changed with a convincing argument. In talking to you I just seek to understand and also tell you why I believe what I believe with the possibility that I am wrong on certain things.

Again, nobody cares that you believe this. You haven't given any justification for it, you aren't arguing it.

Okay at 18 in New Zealand society you are legally and otherwise considered an adult who has every legal avenue open to them. That separates secondary school kids from uni students and is one of the differences between the two. A school age kid is not ready, nor should have to finance themselves however at 18 this where New Zealand has said you are an adult. This is generally accepted. After 18 nothing is owed to you by your parents or the state except the human right to PURSUE a good quality of living and to be PROVIDED with the safety to not be physically or mentally molested by an individual or group in society. A loan for uni is a PRIVILEDGE with prerequisites, just like a car or gun license is, just like getting a welfare check is. 21 at some point was adulthood however this has changed and is not a static variable. That is why I said that.

Society as a whole benefits from members of our society being well educated. Yes. But students directly benefit while everyone else indirectly benefits to a lesser degree and yes there is a difference. GDP boost is also not a great metric for individual benefit.

Secondly, your ability to work is not dependent on your age. Yes it is. We have labour laws to stop under 17's doing this.

Tertiary education is full time, it's explicitly called 'full time study' if you do a full time study program, which most people do.

Full time does not indicate how much time a course actually consume. A first year Bachelour of Arts in English doing 7 papers will have more time than a 3rd year engineer taking 10. Also where did I say that I expect them to pay during their degree? As I have implied many times I expect graduates to pay a bit after they graduate for services rendered to them. I also support allowances and living costs being looked at.

under a certain age you are assumed to be supported by your parents if they earn enough to support you, above a certain age you are assumed to be independent

I AGREE wholeheartedly and this is the reason why I have colossal debt. I think that this needs to be sorted so those who are out of home actually receive the funding they need to buy groceries and rent.

Asking a small co-pay on papers and facilities is not really the same thing as living costs. Living costs are unpredictable and have ridiculously more expense than papers. Papers and their structure in a degree are more static and have a more predictable number. I have seen people in Devonport living at home get allowance while I have seen those with little resources not be granted allowance due to their parents net worth. Also those who are poor but not poor enough. I was the middle one.

And you tell me not to use ideological rhetoric? I don't want to get into this... Okay.

So you believe that university education should be funded more for degrees with more earning potential? Not more earning potential. More demand. The two are in correlation but not causality.

The economy is running perfectly fine as it is. Are you an economist now or do you just listen to One News? Our economy is not that diverse and relies on building, and farming...the way to diversify involves funding sciences and incentivising people to grow businesses in other areas. Look at companies like Rocket Lab.

We do not need more engineers and programmers... Patently wrong. "Automation can grow the economy." who the fuck automates things?...engineers and programmers. Why are those on a skills shortage list Mr. I speak for New Zealand? Why are they highly paid if not needed?

We have more than enough wealth and income to support people that want to study classics or english literature or something. Mostly through the hard work of our primary industries such as meat, dairy, construction. Side note why the fuck shouldn't we just fund my dream training to become a lazer space commando then?

A degree is not a product. The degree you receive is a tangible product indicating a level of learning. That is why you have the ceremony thing where you get the paper and why companies look at your results. Fine then for the sake of argument; it is not a product. It is actually a service. Services ain't usually free in a free economy my friend.

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