I feel like I've made my stance on aversives pretty clear in the past, but in case I haven't, and to avoid being called some sugar and rainbows purely positive trainer who is blind to the limitations of training philosophy he advocates for, here it is. It's in line with and reflects that of the overwhelming majority of behavior analysists across the field of practicing psychology (which, by the way is what the entire field of 'dog training' is based off of): we should refrain from intentionally employing aversives unless the inevitable alternative for the individual is even more aversive than its application. Now let's break this down, so I make myself clear. REFRAIN: If you do decide to use an aversive effectively (i.e. in conjunction with shaping and positive reinforcement of an alternative behavior), then you're probably going to be fine- there's little to no evidence to support that there are long term consequences to its application in this manner. We should refrain from using aversives, not put the fear of god into the people that X, Y, or Z are going to happen such that the feel obligated to. INTENTIONALLY: This is a big one that is often misunderstood. Life is full of aversive experiences, trying to shield an individual from any and all aversive experiences is a goal you'll never achieve, and I don't know of anyone who suggests doing that. However, there's a difference between accepting that aversive experiences are a natural part of life and intentionally employing them on an individual for our own self interests (which, I hate to break it to you, the slight yet objective majority of what we do in 'dog training' is purely for our own self interest). INEVITABLE: Not the 'I'm too lazy to use the other, less intrusive alternatives' or the 'I'm too impatient to use the other, less intrusive alternatives', but the INEVITABLE alternative, regardless of our best efforts to avoid it. I'm talking herding dogs that put the safety of the stock at risk because of a single mistake. Mistakes are a natural part of learning, but some mistakes are straight up dangerous. I'm talking dogs in shelters with petty issues that'll sooner put them to sleep than will get them adopted. If a single nick from an e-collar shuts a dog up in a kennel or keeps him from jumping up on its potential adopters, then I'm all for it. These dogs don't have three months to wait around for the behaviors to extinguish, they'll be dead by then. Pet dogs have all the time in the world though. Seriously, for your petty pet problems, I see no need for the use of aversives. May it require a change in your own behavior to see a change in your dog's? Yes, but making sacrifices on our part in favor of our dogs is, in my opinion, just comes with the territory of having a mutually respectful relationship with an animal. Will you have to inconvenience yourself? Yes. Will it take longer than you expect? Yes. Will it require you to get off your ass and put in some effort? Absolutely. But all this is done with the interest of making training more enjoyable for your dog, in the most minimally aversive manner possible. Just because you don't dread your job doesn't mean you enjoy it, just because you don't hate your boss doesn't mean you enjoy it, hell, just because you enjoy your job doesn't mean there aren't things you wished your employer did differently. I don't see why, then our standards are so low for our dogs' learning. Just because your dog isn't a shivering mess doesn't mean he enjoys training, just because your dog isn't offering calming signals every five minutes doesn't mean he enjoys training. Even if he enjoys training, if refraining from using aversives by making small compromises on our part allows him to enjoy it just a little more, why shouldn't we? As learners, we care so much about how we're taught, but flip the tables and we often couldn't give a shit about how we teach. Think about it from the learner's (your dog's) perspective frequently. You're not the one reluctantly changing your behavior here with no input on how we go about doing it, so I hate to break it to you, but your needs come second.