My point is that if you're going to deny Muslims, then you should arguably deny any religious individual. Or vice versa (allow any). Also, this whole disqualification based on the religion on the individual flies in the face of the Constitution (both Article I which states that there shall be no religious test for office, and the 1st Amendment which protects freedom of religion).
I think the fact that secular government exists in most of the christian world shows that christians in office are not the problem.
This was a typo on my part--I meant to say that the issue is whether Islam is uniquely incompatible with secular governance.
Look around. It isnt. It is plain as day. Open your eyes to what is clearly being played out every day.
It's more accurate to say that secular government was born in Western European nations despite the best efforts of Christian authorities/doctrine, which in no way supports a secular government (least not without some pretty big reinterpretations of various Bible passages).
Every secular government in the west was created by christians who got sick of monarchies and the Vatican. It wasnt created by athiests. Or any other religion for that matter. It is not accurate at all to say that.
Arguably, it had more to do with the historical traditions of democratic/representative government from Ancient Greece and Rome than anything related to Christianity.
It had everything to do with christianity. It was modeled on ancient governments but it was always motivated by disagreement between christian pooulations and christian oligarchs.
It's proven itself capable of existing under a secular government. Maintaining one? That would seem to go against the idea of a secular government if it's being "maintained" by Christianity.
That may be what you think think through your rose colored glasses but the majority of people is western europe and america are christians who have implemented and maintained secular government with minimal intrusion of religious oppression.
Hmmm...so the millions of Muslims living in the U.S. don't count?
Nope. They are diluted and forced into assimilating into our coulture in the US. There arent enough of them in any one place to have a muslim voice in government aside from the very few political action committees.
Or countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, or the various Western European nations with Muslim populations?
Turkey: ruled by a crazy islamist with 8% of the worlds islamic population constantly under threat of economic and social collapse. If they werent an EFTA member state they would be fucked like Syria.
Indonesia and Malaysia; Sharia law is largely implemented in these societies. Just because the women arent forced to wear hijabs or burkas in every family doesnt mean it is by any means a secular nation. Try living there with your western wife. Ill bet you will have a blast.
Egypt; worst female genital mutilation problem in the world. Constantly under threat of collapse. Already collapsed in the last 5 years.
Western Europe? What about British muslim communities that have cordoned themselves off and settle disputes in sharia courts? What about the honor killings that occur every year in those separated communities. People living under secular governments completely disrespecting the rights afforded by those governments by denouncing female freedom and maintaining religious integrity to the point that Europe doesnt know what to do about it for fear of being called racist.
You keep pointing towards the worst examples of Muslim-majority countries, while ignoring the rest which show that it is certainly possible for Muslims to peacefully coexist within a secular society.
I prefer to look at the 90% of the muslim world that lives in a way that makes humanism and tolerance impossible. The fact that you think Egypt and Indonesia and Malaysia are beacons of moderate secular governments and populations is evidence you have zero idea what you are talking about besides the tylical liberal assembly line arguments that cannot stand up to scrutiny. You should take a look that that Pew research I posted. You might learn something.
Certain sects of Islam do, yes.
Virtually all of islam starts this by 10 years old.
Some Christian sects require women to wear modest clothing which hides as much of their body as possible.
An extremely small sect. Orthodox christians. And last time I checked, they dont take a woman not doing that to be inviting rape.
Does that mean Christianity is necessarily wicked and oppressive?
Statistically, christianity is not wicked or opressive. Islam is though. Read that Pew report. Not just the highlights.
You again miss my point. My point was that there are variations among Muslim-majority countries in terms of what Sharia demands and how it is enforced (if it's enforced by the government at all).
And none of it is okay or humanistic or tolerant of other beliefs.
These women are still entitled to the same legal rights as their male counterparts. Usually, the dress code things are enforced culturally/socially, rather than actually enforced by the government. Again, countries like Saudi Arabia actually are the exception rather than the norm.
No. They arent. They cant drive in some countries. They cant go to school past a young age in most. They cannot own property or inheret wealth from their families. They cannot divorce. They cannot report abuse. They cannot choose their partner. They cannot disobey their husbands. They must have four eye witnesses to a rape for it to even be considered in a sharia court. They are stoned or acid splashed for infidelity but men? Who cares!? Allah put women on earth to be harvested like fields according to Mohammad. Are you just completely ignorant? Do you actually know anything about the islamic world? Apparently not.
See above.
Hahahaha! You actually think minorities and LGBT people have any rights? You are truly ignorant as ignorant can possibly be. Iran hangs people for homosexuality as do many islamic cultures.
Citation please.
LOOK AT THE PEW RESEARCH
How many did the Christian Church excommunicate and/or execute for challenging the Church or Christianity?
Oh so I guess things that happened centuries ago excuse barbaric behavior today. Apparently history isnt supposed to be a lesson to you. Just a nice story right?
How many times do fundamentalist Christians ostracize individuals for leaving the faith or coming out as gay/bisexual/transsexual/etc.?
Comparatively rarely compared to islam.
Remember, we also looking at what makes a Muslim somehow less qualified than a Christian
YOUR POINT IS MOOOOOOT.
And again, this ignores the millions of Muslims who live quite peacefully in the U.S.
Oh so I guess an incredibly small minority of people priveleged enough to come here are representative of the other 99% of Islam right? Strength in numbers is what you have to keep in mind. The only reason they dont cause problems for the US is because they lack the numbers. Look at what hapoens in Brighton, Luton, Leicester and Manchester Gorton for examples of what haooens when the numbers reach critical mass in one place. They cordon themselves off and deintegrate. Every damn time.
Because I don't see the world in black and white categories and actually look to understand the details? Because I've actually studied Islam and know that it's not really all that different from Christianity?
Because you literally have no idea what you are talking about. CLEARLY. Islam and christianity have very little commonalities in the oractice of those religions and the societal constraints each imposes on its followers. You have no knowledge of islam. At all. Or eyes to see any the fallacy in your points.
No, it isn't. There may be a set of passages, but there are a variety of interpretations of those passages. Entire schools of thought devoted to the subject. Sharia means different things to different Muslims.
It means nothing to western culture. I dont care what sharia says, because it doesnt say anything I agree with at all or any westerner agrees with. At all.
None of sharia is okay. None of it is humanistic and ewual and tolerant. Not one "school of thought."
So you're admitting that it's possible and actually happens.
See above for why this is only temporary until enough of them live in one place.
Good to hear.
You are an idiot.
Because remember, this is a discussion about a Muslim becoming President of the U.S., thus still bound by the Constitution and laws/customs of the U.S
No. It isnt. I have had to waste my time pointing out the obvious to you and nothing in my comment that you initially replied too was about that. You are an idiot.
This has been thoroughly debunked back when various conservatives and right-wingers were claiming that there were Muslim "No-Go Zones" across Europe.
No it hasnt. I would love to see a "citation" for this to laugh my ass off.
It's not true.
Yes. It is.
Patently false. See above.
Your resoonse is completely insufficient and without basis in reality.
Also, not a necessary trait of Muslims/Islam. Certainly no less than Christianity or any other religion.
Yes. Necessarily. And since 1.5 billion people follow it, it is a problem. And christianity has waaaaaaaaaay less of those problems. Are you fucking blind?
You've already admitted that it can coexist, following periods of assimilation.
I have admitted nothing of the sort. I have clearly pointed out that this is complete bullshit. Many times.
The millions of Muslims living perfectly peacefully in the U.S. completely disprove your claim that it can't.
Less than 1% of muslims in a culture of 310 non muslims is not an example of islamic tolerance and assimilation. Do you understand basic statistics?
Good god you are an idiot.
Go live in any middle eastern country with your family and let me know how accepting they are.