It looks like the tables have turned.

You said I was getting worked up, when I was refuting your points. That's a pretty clear double standard.

No, as I mentioned in my previous posts, I was referring to this: "To be honest, you sound a lot like those shitposters on /a/ who were angry about this poll. It's very similar to their huge insecurity. This poll literally means nothing. It's not going to change how the story goes. Yui and Iroha have 0.05% chance of winning, so you can stop." Once again, all of this was irrelevant and had nothing to do with what we were discussing. It also was based on a number of assumptions which had no base in what I said.

And I read that, and it's a nice analysis. But there are hundreds more as well.

Glad to hear it. However, this is one of the more recognized opinions that have been floating around. If you would like to challenge it, please post your own link.

But how is that submissive? I was just refuting your point.

Then why bring it up? I was just refuting your points.

And I was refuting yours.

Submissive: meekly obedient or passive. From what I've seen so far, Yui does not take an authoritative approach to problems she encounters, and at best only ends up delaying them by "keeping peace". I cannot deny she is making some progress, but it is far too little for this late in the story. From what I've seen as well, being cute is the other huge appeal of her character, which is something you could find in plenty of other series. Either way, you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

Stating that Yukino is nothing more than a rich girl who is looking for her self-inserted hero is the same as stating that Yui is nothing more than a submissive, self-worth generation machine for your self-inserted protagonist. Both arguments are subjective, biased, and overall fallacious claims that have no basis in a real discussion. So after making the claim, I stated, "Of course, why would you acknowledge a point that hurts your argument?" shedding light at this fact. In my last post I gave my ACTUAL thoughts on why Yui was an ideal after you had jumped to conclusions on what you thought I meant.

I said it was FOR the sake of a story. There needed to be drama, so Yukino was made to be cold, even though it was pretty unrealistic. But that's just drama in general isn't it.

I don't understand this argument at all. That's the equivalent of saying 8man shouldn't have been cynical either just because he had problems in HIS childhood, but no one says that. How else would you give depth to characters? For the third time, people react differently to their circumstances. She was isolated both at home and at school growing up, and built up a shell for herself as a coping mechanism. You cannot deem something to be unrealistic just because it does not fall within your realm of experience. That's just a lack of empathy. Also, drama is a subjective topic. What may be filled with unnecessary angst and melodrama for one, may resonate emotionally with another. That also isn't a valid point.

Because she's not the focus. And I wouldn't say she's underdeveloped. As much as Yukino, no, but not underdeveloped. She serves her role as the normal person. Just because one isn't as developed doesn't mean they aren't. It's like saying an A is a bad grade because someone else got an A+. Also, how is Iroha more developed? Just because she has a fake personality? If that's development, then Hayama blows everyone out of the water.

She's underdeveloped in that she's limited by her character role. Had she been in the place of Yukino, perhaps the story would have turned out differently, but she's not. All she was meant to do was to be the anchor between Yukino and 8man as they struggled with their own and each other values, and eventually contribute to the romantic drama. That's about it. As I stated before, "she's just that simple, open-book, light-hearted character that draws attention to the OTHER dynamics within the show." The show's main theme revolves around people: their individual mindsets, aspirations, motivations and flaws. Yui was severely limited in this regard having not been focused on by the author being a relief character, and so became painfully out of place when even compared to secondary characters like Hayato and Haruno. While this does not make her a bad person, and may suit people's interests, she is at her core underdeveloped and idealistic. And so, I do not find your analogy to be fitting for a case like this.

As for your statement about Iroha, it is also clear that she is also going through some changes. She was someone who put on a fake and cute personality in order to get the affection of others. Based off her somber and almost pitiful tone after failing to lead the student council effectively during the brainstorming arc, it is highly likely that she experienced social problems growing up and ended up changing herself in order to beat her circumstances. This contrasts nicely between Yukino's perspective of changing the world around her, and 8man's view of forgetting the world altogether. After he inevitable rejection from Hayato, her time with 8man has made her more confident in her abilities and made her also seek after true genuine relationships.

Obviously, however, we can still criticize them. Especially if it's unnatural

Criticizing for the sake of criticizing is nothing more than circle-jerking if it is not based on any concrete point. As I mentioned before, this is the third time where I must remind you that what you deem to be "unnatural" is not everyone's "unnatural", and therfore is yet another illogical argument.

Which I meant by saying being normal, as he was normal back then.

Right after the sentence you posted, I stated that he may have no realized how lonely/isolated he really was as a child. He was likely in a state of ignorance. So, returning to that doesn't make much sense. What he CAN do is learn to overcome those boundaries and find his place in society.

Maybe because you were being hypocritical, and did a personal attack on me?

How is saying the truth somehow being a victim?

Did I ever deny that fact? I was just pointing out the facts about the numbers.

A personal attack and being hypocritical? While I do not believe it was of that extent, I'm sorry if I did end up offending you or this hit you on the wrong spot. The opinions of others are trivial if you cannot defend what you believe yourself. So, playing the card that "everybody else is shitting on my character so I deserve recognition" is not a valid point, especially when it was of equal malice on both sides. That is precisely the reason I don't particularly care about the results of these polls. They are just things that I keep a note of. If I disagree, I'll make my point, and even if it works in my favor, I won't flaunt it.

How? Yukino still remains uninterested in everyone except 8man and Yui, who are the main cast. That's pretty standard for Kuuderes. Iroha is still sly and purposefully annoys others.

I think I answered the one about Iroha decently. As for Yukino, it is worth noting that she also has her flaws and insecurities just as 8man does. It is an apt comparison to describe them as opposite sides of the same coin. From what I've heard, it seems her dad has travelled interntionally leaving her with just her sister and mother. For years, she has been under the shadow of her sister, striving to achieve the recognition off of her own merit she craves so much. Growing up, she was never able to make solid friendships and ultimately scorned by her peers. She crafted a facade of ice as a coping mechanism in order to deflect her pain after accepting that she would not be allowed to adjust normally. Somewhat resentful, she took great pride in herself and worked diligently to prove everyone who doubted her wrong. However, after meeting 8man she was forced to reevaluate those values. Since then, she has made significant progress in seeking what she wants and not other's expectations on her. After 8man's genuine speech, she can take solace in the fact that the people closest to her are there to help and can understand what she's feeling. I haven't included everything since this is already too long, but that's the simplified version of what happening with her character. The story is still ongoing, so we're likely to only see more changes in her from this point onwards.

Might as well get the whole thing quoted: "you're discarding the argument by doing that." Stating that I'm just salty implies that I'm just angry and writing down BS.

Hmm, I was more referring to the confrontational and bitter tone that I got from your post, not that it was BS.

I feel I have adequately answered your last point throughout this post. If this isn't enough to convince you otherwise, I also don't know what to tell you. You attacked specific characters yourself, so I'm not really sure what you mean when you suddenly say "all of them are complex compared to most characters in other series, and they all are great characters."

God damn, this is long...

/r/OreGairuSNAFU Thread Parent Link - i.imgur.com