NYTimes: How Would You Like to Live in the Nation of New England?

I'll admit, the idea is tempting. It is incredibly frustrating to see a small splinter cell of our country take control by force. It angers me everytime I see Moscow Mitch do some senate bullshit that let's Trump do whatever the hell he wants when what he wants is to systematically tear away every layer of democracy in this country. I'm enraged when I see him get to appoint whatever insane alt right facist he wants as a judge, and it is even more painful to see gun toting Confederate flag waving knuckle draggers line up to voice their support for him because they thinks he's the best chance to overturn Roe v Wade or some shit. Trust me...the idea of saying "fuck it, I'm starting my own country. And it'll have black jack and hookers" is a delicious wet dream right now.

But it's also a pipe dream. There's a lot of good points in other comments here, but I'll try to summarize it and add some additional thought points.

1) There is no such thing as voluntary secession in the US. That's why there was a civil war. And while that one had two equally-ish sized/powerful territories, this one would be a region smaller than many states versus the largest military force in human history. I don't know about you, but even if every man woman and child in NE enlisted, I have zero idea how we would combat drones and nukes. It's not as easy as just marching with a gun to a field anymore.

1b) Even if the US fully balkanized, and we formed an alliance with the west coast, how would we get troops and supplies to eachother? We can't just go over the land of the country we're fighting. We also can't fly over it without being shot down either. We'd have to ship EVERYTHING aaaall the way around South America. (What remains of the US in this scenario would definitely prioritize controlling the Panama Canal). It would essentially be a two front war which yeah haha Germany lost that shit but again...we're no longer in trenches with single shot rifles. The world has drones and missiles. Trump would kill us in our homes without anyone even getting off their ass.

1c) One of the scariest parts of Trump's presidency is how goddam friendly he is with dictators. He's made friends with Russia, China, and North Korea, and making enemies with him means making enemies with them. If the US were to Balkanize, those who secede would likely have to ask countries like Canada and those in the EU for help. If they oblige, Trump gets his friends involved and it's straight up WWIII. We may not get the help we would need out of fear of starting WWIII.

1d) We all know about Russia and the 2016 election, but what's scary is that they also likely have a hand in what's been going on in the UK (specifically with Boris Johnson and Brexit), and Australia has been getting scarily friendly with China. Who you think our allies would be may not be the friends you think they'd be. We're likely to be left with a UK-less EU, possibly Canada, and strangely enough maybe Iran and some other Middle Eastern countries (Israel and Saudi Arabia would go to Trump though). Our side does not look likely to be the winning side, and much as the first 2 World Wars led to an end in Imperialism and establishing the Nation State as we know it to be the defacto form of organizing society, this hypothetical WWIII would lead to fascism and authoritarianism being the defacto for human kind for a long, long time. With the surveillance state these leaders are establishing, and the kind of technology their militaries have, it could hundreds, or even thousands of years before democracy returns.

We have to keep that potential domino effect in mind when we take our actions. Things suck right now, but we don't want to make a hasty decision that dooms mankind.

2) Say we do win the war of secession. Then what? Yeah we'd theoretically have a large economy, but it's based on industrial power, namely in the form of professional services. I don't know about you, but I have zero idea how to grow my own food, let alone any idea on where I'd find enough land to do so. Hell, I don't even know if I could take a bounty from harvest season and store it properly to last me all through the tough winter months. Do you?

This leaves us with two options...mass migrations out of the metropolitan areas into the more rural ones so that our new nation can feed itself, or we import all our food. If we go the grow our own food route, we lose all that economic power. If we go the import route, everything will be way more expensive, and we'll see an even more massive migration into the metropolitan areas as "business" jobs are the only way to be able to afford to feed your family.

And while we may have good relations with the other balkanized states, keep in mind the country we left behind and their friends are still very rich and will out bid us for everything. Today a lot of our food comes from SE Asia and India and other similar countries. Do you think they'll give us food at a discount to support our new freedom, or would they just sell to the highest bidder, ie the countries we just fought a war against who want to see us fail. Even our sister states who have better agricultural capabilities will have to prioritize their own survival over ours.

2b) Infrastructure. We say we'd have one of the worlds largest economies. But that's just assuming business carrys on as usual. If we succeed in secession...the internet is gone. We may be able to keep some local stuff like electric and water and other utilities, but the technology is gone. Boston's healthcare dominance takes a huge hit. New York's (I include them in joining us in the scenario btw) financial industry power is completely gone. I mean just think how you personally would do your job without a phone or the internet, and then imagine trying to outbid Trump for food on whatever money you could still make.

2c) Embargos, blockades, and Trump's favorite...tariffs. Just because we won the war, doesn't mean Trump has to play nice. As mentioned above, we'd likely be a very trade dependent nation. That means we'd have warships outside every port. That means we'd be out bid at every auction. That means our goods would be incredibly expensive to our former fellow Americans, and shipments to our other balkanized sister states would be stolen. Trumps already stealing our medical supplies to help his reelection campaign, so there's no doubt he'd resort to straight pirating us out of existence.

3) The global power vacuum. The US has a lot of problems. I'm one of its largest critics. But the fact of the matter is that we're the only thing stopping Russia from annexing half of Europe, and China buying the rest of Asia and parts of Africa and maybe Australia. If we balkanize, nobody benefits more than China and Russia. Even if our secession is successful, and our post war economics stable, we now live in their world, and have to play by their rules.

Part of what makes Brexit and Russias potential involvement in it scary is the fact that it severely weakens the EU on the global stage, and again nobody benefits from that more than Russia.

Also Brazil. We kinda forget about them a lot in the US but they've got a big military and a lot of money and are led by not such a great guy. No doubt that the guy who sold the rights to burn the Amazon would take the opportunity to annex the rest of South America.

3b) The other likely options include India, Japan, and most interestingly for this scenario, Canada. We would definitely need Canada's help to win the war of secession, and we would need them to continue helping us to survive.

4) Why declare independence and fight an uphill battle for survival when we can just join Canada? (assuming they want us but ya know, assume they do for the scenario). The 4 regions discussed when US Balkanization comes up are New England, the West Coast, the Great Lakes Region, and Appalachia. Instead of those 4 each trying to be a country...why not all join Canada as new provinces? This would create one incredibly large and continuous country. It would give Canada (and thus take away from Trump) a huge, and I mean absolutely stagger amount of, the world's largest economy.

This may still lead to a war of secession, but it's more likely to be a civil/revolutionary war over a WWIII, and our odds of winning are much better. While Canada doesn't have a terribly large military, they currently have the world's 10th biggest economy, and might easily pole vault into the top 3, but definitely top 5. We'd have the supply lines needed, and if those of us in the very populated seceded states fight for our integration, we have the money and infrastructure to back us. We would definitely be set up for a success post war economy. What is left of the US may still have a strong military, but maybe those who still wave Confederate flags will you know...say good riddance and not support a civil war? Or even if they do, it's a fight better in our odds, and he can't call in favors from his friends without looking like the bad guy and gaining support for our side of WWIII.

TL;DR I would not support a straight up declaration of independence and secession, but I might be open to being a Canadian.

And since the NSA is definitely the first to read this post, no I'm not saying "let's all go to Canada". Plan A is EVERYONE to start getting more involved politically once quarantine is over, and try to help take our country back from the fascists. I'm just pointing out why joining Canada isn't a terrible plan B, and how it is much better than the distant 3rd option of the goddam New York Times proposed New New England. Please don't kidnap me and bring me to Guantanamo Bay.

/r/boston Thread Link - nyti.ms