Why do people hate PUA?

Not to be an asshole, but I think the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise I'd be proving a negative.

I'm not interested in actually giving proof to you, but you're essentially using "no true scotsman" here because you blanket-rejected any proof as probably coming from the "wrong corner of PU", which isn't really fair. Obviously not all PUAs are the same, but on the whole, my impression is that what they do is tantamount to pressure, pressure intended to get people to become sexually involved with them when their first, most clearheaded decision would be to not do so.

Ultimately, I think most people probably attach a bit too much stigma to PUAs, but I think you're going the other direction and giving them too much of the benefit of the doubt. What motives do people have for being PUAs? To get laid (or similar), with the most attractive people possible. To get benefits. Those kind of people probably won't be as focused on developing close, personal relationship with the people they interact with sexually. The reason that they need a specific set of tactics to accomplish this is because most women (let's take the predominant case of straight men being PUAs) don't want that. They want more of a balanced physical and emotional connection, and for good reason: sex is risky, and forming an emotional connection alongside a physical one reduces that risk and provides a sort of insurance. The other person is willing to invest and become close to her; if they were using her just for sex without caring about her, which might cause them to do risky or mean things (examples: sleep around with others at the same time without telling her, have STDs without telling her, record their sexual interactions in secret, distribute pictures/information about her online, end communication on a whim, etc), then they probably wouldn't have made that investment. They would have just looked for "easier" sex somewhere else. PUAs develop tactics that provide the impression of caring, being trustworthy, and being willing to make this investment. The tactics are intended to make the men seem appealing from sexual and emotional standpoints. But, it an easily be used as a front: though this impression is given, the PUAs can easily get away without following through on those impressions. This deception, while maybe not outright lying or dishonesty, serves to manipulate the standard set of social cues and impressions that people give when forming physical and emotional relationships. In effect, people don't want to be deceived in this way. They want to lower the chance of this kind of deception happening to them. So, they condemn PUAs, since they are giving people tools to deceive people in this way.

Personally I am not a fan of PUAs because I think you should learn how to present yourself accurately, not deceptively. PUAs focus on adding an extra layer on top of your real self to attract women. If they stopped at self-improvement and describing how one could develop oneself into a more attractive person, that would be fine. People who agree on terms of casual sex, I'm fine with that. Teaching someone how best to find people who are down for such an agreement and how best to enter one, I'm fine with that. People who want to be more attractive and who are also willing to make the extra investment to take relationships further emotionally when it's clear that's implied and expected, sure. It's the deception I don't like. One major motive for learning PUA strategy (and use of it) is to get sex without having to go through the rest of the motions normally associated with relationships, to get people who would normally not go for a no-strings-attached sexual interaction into going for one. I don't think that's a healthy motive; it's not one I want to support.

/r/FeMRADebates Thread Parent