Q4RP: If you apply a moralistic lens to TRP, would you agree that TBP has a point?

To preface this argument, I think advice for LTR's is TRP's weakest point, and I think it's in this area that it gives the worst advice. But at the same time, that's almost understandable because RedPill is about sexual strategy primarily as it pertains to hook-up culture, plate-spinning, and game. Most RP threads will even overtly state: "Do NOT get into long term relationships. We highly advise you NOT to do this."

So I think when we examine the morality of RedPill it needs to be approached from two separate viewpoints- the morality of hooking up using RedPill methods, and the morality of Long Term Relationship strategy. The reason is because the types of situations between those two different contexts are VERY different and have to be examined differently.

When it comes to hooking up, I've found that very few Bluepillers claim the moralistic argument against RedPill ideas. RP simply says to be confident, maintain frame, lift, become skilled at using game, spin plates, recognize the shit tests, and most importantly be HONEST about your intentions. The part of this Bluepill has a problem with most is that even though these methods can and do work, they may not work for the reasons redpillers think they do, and that these methods are not the best way for getting laid or having a healthy love life in general. The reason I feel the need to clarify this is because oftentimes bluepillers say plate-spinning is dishonest and cruel, when in reality TRP theory advocates honesty.

The aspects of morality you mentioned [Dread Game, DT, operant conditioning, etc.] come into play during Long Term Relationship strategy. As I already mentioned earlier in the post, RP quite plainly says to avoid LTR's at all costs. So keeping that in mind most RedPillers who do seek out these strategies are usually in marriages or other long term relationships on a downward spiral. Dead bedrooms, cheating, and impending divorces are common symptoms. These TRP methods are their last ditch attempts to preserve their marriages or the sanity and well being of these men. This is the area where TBP has a serious problem when it comes to morals. But that's the whole point. A relationship has gotten so bad that a moral line had to be crossed in the first place!

Morality is a lot more grey in these situations. "Is it moral to steal if you are starving?" "Is it moral to cheat on a spouse if they are physically abusing you?" These aren't questions you can answer with a simple yes or no.

This is the reason redpillers say sexual strategy is amoral. If you have to choose between stealing food and starving, most people will steal the food. It no longer becomes a choice of morals, but a choice based out of the necessity of self preservation. You do what you MUST do in order to survive. Hence, it is an amoral choice. It is neither good nor bad, but necessary.

The next question would be: "Well, what about RP men who use manipulation tactics like Dread Game when their relationships AREN'T failing? Is that immoral?" That's something I've wondered about myself. Again, I think it depends completely on context.

However, I think at the very least manipulation tactics should be a last line of defense in any relationship. By failing to acknowledge other aspects of a LTR in positive, non-paranoid ways, TRP can oftentimes sandwich men into little boxes where they have very few tools besides manipulation and withholding sex to deal with common problems. A hammer is great for putting nails in a board, but sometimes you need a wrench or duct tape instead.

TL,DR: I don't think there is much, if anything when it comes to spinning plates that I find morally wrong. I think the LTR TRP gives is very limited and can create unhealthy living conditions, but I also believe much of it is used in desperate situations where all other forms of communication have failed. This doesn't make it right, but rather an act out of self preservation than morals. I think it is possible that some TRP advice can be immoral, but it highly depends on the context of the situation.

/r/PurplePillDebate Thread