/r/circlejerk: To some countries Russia was "far, far worse" than Nazi Germany

I meant that people were assholes back then, Russians, silent to the treatment of those who were oppressed.

Well, its the same now in the US really. People here want to believe what they've been told and not accept responsibility and consequences for intervention and actions. I understand the "patriotism" of success and influence, but I'm always concerned when it blurs into or passes into nationalism. The US is pretty close to the line, but I'm not sure where one begins and the other ends. I'm not Russian so I can't speak to it personally, but I see some scary things in Russian media, and I would suggest its crossed over past "patriotism".

It is like racism/slavery in US

The US has kind of split the two into separate things. There is some broad collective guilt about slavery, and its certainly politically charged enough for everyone to know what the right position to take on it is. Racism isn't so cut and dry. There's definitely real racial tension, it exists behind closed doors usually, but I think its fairly pervasive. Again, people know what can and can't be said generally, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists pretty widely.

Ok, we were assholes, we are not anymore.

I think this is an awesome sentiment and I believe most people/countries would really appreciate the acknowledgement.

I'd like to see the same thing in the US. We didn't have Stalin, Sovietization/Russification or similar events, but the big things we should do this for are Iraq, creating bad guys only to have to fight them later, general meddling, causing destabilization, the NSA, police, and double standards.

Problem for both sides is that if you say you're not an asshole anymore, you have to actually not be one. That would require changes to be made...

And to be honest if Nazi Germany had won and survived it would have written history.

Of course the victor writes history, but it doesn't neccessarily make it right.

I agree. I understand them.

Ive never claimed any side to be beyond fixing relations with, and if there were less nationalism and tribalism, along with government manipulation, people would be able to understand past events and work toward moving forward. I avoided using the term patriotism because I believe the term is too loosely used, at least in context of the way I perceive it in the US, and probably Russia. (I think the term has been bastardized and doesn't usually mean what people think it means) Its not easy to acknowledge fault, but as long as the big players and their populations don't do it, everything is going to stay shitty. While the Baltics may be a pain in the ass, looking at the big picture would show that their grievances have some merit, and at the end of the day, they are small countries without much of a voice or impact on the world. The same can't be said for Russia, the US, or China.

It should already be business-as-usual. But, again as I said, victory is sacred for Russians. But, they are insecure about it.

I think a good way to describe it based on what you said is conflicted, it explains the problem as wanting to see the good while also not wanting to see the bad. The two are at odds for the prominent feeling, but people want to see the good first and either deny or minimize the bad. I get it, but I also get that not everyone is so forgiving when they are told things weren't so bad.

I do have issues with it. It can create a huge rift in the society. You think 50% of Russians finding Stalin positive is a lot? It is a civil war. Or even worse than that, a threat of a civil war.

I'm glad someone living there (if you live there) acknowledges it honestly, this is the first time I've seen anyone fess up to it without a long list of qualifiers or shifting blame or subject. Hopefully rational heads prevail. I think that kind of environment can get ugly fast. How do you think it could be changed?

They cherish liberation, when they kicked Nazi ass

This is something I think pretty much everyone understands and agrees with.

What I mean is that uneducated Russian consciousness: We kicked Nazis => Liberated europe, saved from extinction, europe which hated us => Helped them recover => We were friends => It was perfect => "Eastern Europe says: Ugh, It wasn't like that" => Fucking Traitors.

This was awesome, makes perfect sense, I lol'd. Sounds like a bad (forced) marriage, no?

Attempts to equate Nazism with Stalinism are seen as subversion.

I don't think they are the same, I think they are similar in horrendous impact, but different reasons. Of course they don't want to view Stain the same as Hitler. I don't think anyone is asking that. In my view, acknowledging the size and severity of the problem and that it wasn't good is really the important part. I see a lot of very forceful defense of Stalin that I understand after your post tonight, but I still can't wrap my head around his popularity. How many Russians did he kill or abuse? Even if he had good intentions (which I don't know enough about but would doubt based on how many deaths he was responsible for), how can so many people look past the mass killing of your countrymen?

Just look at the Ukraine. I just don't think it should be a topic for discussion, from either side.

I agree its a charged topic. I think there is blame for both sides. Its turned into yet another proxy war, and it sucks. It could/should have been handled differently by Russia, and it should probably have been acknowledged as important enough to Russia to leave it alone. While I believe there was US influence, I don't know how much was organic from Ukraine wanting to move to closer European integration, how much they wanted to split from Russia, or how much was directly a result of an unknown amount of US meddling.

Though, I think Russians lost any dynamism they had.

I'm not close enough to it, but it seems like they haven't got their mojo back since the SU if thats what you meant. What happened?

I appreciate the civil discussion, but I have to get up for work in 7 hours.

I've learned some things from your perspective, spasiba.

/r/russia Thread Parent