I see your point, reading back it does look like explaining away their actions. I did not mean to sound like that it's okay what they're doing. Because it's really not.

I guess I'm tired of back and forth hating and not actually getting anywhere with it. In order to move forward, if that's what we want anyway, we need to be willing to consider each other's reasons saying what we're saying. Whether they're good reasons or not (and I personally have not heard good reasons as of yet). Because if we are not at least willing to listen to them, why would they listen to us?

This ofcourse is very black and white. There is no clear 'us' and 'them'. I am convinced among 'them' are many who will never change, never listen, and remain who they are. But I am also convinced among them are high schoolers with a potential to grow into healthy minded men, given the help they need.

I would like to apologize for possibly hurting any feelings with my original comment, as I know this is a sensitive issue and rightfully so. Many on this sub have in the past been hurt by members of the incel community, and I absolutely don't mean to imply they are somehow allowed to cause hurt in others. I also don't mean to imply we should be forgiving them, that is entirely a personal decision I have no right to judge.