Still on the fence after all this time

Being an undecided, all I can do is say what I would think if I were on the jury at the time so I'll give it a try. it's going to be wordy so I hope you can hang in! lol

1) palm print on torn out Leakin Park page of map (or map book, not sure which) laying on top of the other items moved from trunk to back seat of Hae's car;

irrelevant. it's the cover of a map book. he was in her car all the time. If we believe the closing, as recent as two days prior. Otherwise, 2 weeks. It wasn't on the page that was torn out and there was nothing really even suspicious to me about this at all. Had it been Jay's fingerprints or someone she was unconnected to that showed up in the database, sure b/c those people would not have a reason to be in her car so ANYWHERE there prints were found would be suspicious-but with Adnan or Don or someone close to her it just seems completely irrelevant to me. would have to throw it out.

so my outcome on this one: irrelevant.

2) asking Hae for a ride 1st period, then letting Jay borrow car and phone, then asking Hae again for a ride and no one else if she says no, then telling 1st cop that day she was supposed to give him a ride and left, 2nd cop that he never asked, 3rd cop that he doesn't remember the day;

Regarding the first sentence-if he knew he was going to Jay's then it makes sense, it really doesn't matter whether his car was there or not, as long as he knew he would need a ride later. Regarding not asking anyone else, if the girls are right and she waited until the end of school to say 'no' then the idea that he didn't find someone else isn't that strange. Maybe he even tried to call Jay to come get him? I also wouldn't find it strange that he wouldn't go looking for a back up 'in case' Hae told him no later so. Additionally, I have always said that just from a common sense perspective, if he was asking Hae for a ride in front of others it seems even less likely he had any plans/intentions of killing her. Just makes zero sense. Now, on to the inconsistencies in his statements to the cops-this is suspicious. Similar to the asking for the ride in front of others, it seems illogically stupid to say that you were supposed to get a ride with someone that is presumably missing if you know she is dead. However, it's still incredibly wierd that he'd say he was supposed to and assumed she got tired of waiting and left if she actually told him no, which is what it sounds like happened and what most agreed is probably the case (and that he simply turned on the charm to get her to change her mind). That is the weirdest thing about it to me-lying about it afterwards, not so much. Seems that once he realized she was truly missing he is going to try to walk that back. I would definitely consider this suspicious. In the end though, the fact that no one saw him with her, in or near her car right after school is of course going to instill some reasonable doubt for me personally. So this one. so my outcome on this one: circumstantial evidence but lots of reasonable doubt.

3) telling a teacher to stop asking questions about Hae's disappearance and then maybe threatening her (transcript page missing) and also taking pages out of Debbie's book related to police investigation into Hae's disappearance;

I am not sure what you mean by 'then maybe threatening her'. I don't recall anything about threatening her in anything I read but there is so much. always an opportunity to learn something new. this one really again, doesn't tell me anything about the crime itself and could just be him feeling upset or thinking the teacher is out to get him or something. I find the whole scenario here a bit odd in general.

outcome: probably wouldn't influence me one way or the other but it might seem a little strange.

4) writing "I am going to kill" on back of note from Hae from prior break-up where she tells him she wants independence and he shouldn't take this so hard;

I have a different reading of the letter itself but I guess that doesn't really matter. hmmm, I don't know. It's strange to be sure since she ended up dead.

outcome: circumstantial evidence

5) strange actions while at Cathy's:

1) telling Hae's younger brother "why don't you go ask her new boyfriend"

no idea why that would be strange especially if multiple people thought she might be with him.

2) saying to him or someone else "what am I supposed to say?" implying asked about this disappearance;

how come Jay never mentions this? I don't know. I guess I would definitely put the whole Cathy's house thing down as circumstantial evidence.

3) acting alternately catatonic and panicked and leaving in a rush within a half-hour of when cell phone pinged in Leakin Park near burial site,

eh, I've been high a lot and I've been around a lot of people who were high. I didn't find the behavior she described regarding him being almost passed out as strange at all. As for the rushing out, if Jay told a similar and consistent story this would be much more suspicious. Jay and Cathy's stories really don't match up to well.

4) not telling his own lawyer he went to Cathy's and still maintaining he has no specific memory of this visit on this day;

He does maintain he remembers going to Cathy's once, just not when exactly.

outcome for Cathy's house: Circumstantial evidence.

6) still maintaining 16 years later that he has no significant memories about any of the other incriminating gaps of time where he has no alibi and nobody saw him except Asia (which he also didn't remember), especially since his only story at trial was he "probably" just went to school-home-track when the cell pings show phone zooming around city, none of which activity he or any of his supporters have ever explained, effectively relying on a claim that Jay is a liar but leaving Jay's detailed testimony about what he did with Adnan that day entirely unrebutted;

certainly suspicious but legally speaking, not all that relevant for me since I feel that the state needs to tie him to the actual murder and was not able to do that except through Jay's statements which, at least parts of, where obviously not true and were completely inconsistent. If Asia did see him on that day, I understand that isn't complete exoneration, but it would make it even more difficult for him to accomplish it in the time he needed to and also to quite luckily intercept Hae and for no one to see him.

Overall outcome: suspicious.

7) Jay knowing where Hae's car was, method of murder, burial location and position, what was missing from Hae's car, while Jay and Adnan hung out together several times that day (as Nisha and Cathy testified and Adnan admits and the cell pings corroborate);

sorry but I just don't buy that this is the day Nisha spoke to Jay. To me this indicates that Jay knew these details but is not concrete evidence that Adnan did. I do not feel that they have to be tied together, personally. I feel like all the cell phone pings indicate is that the investigators needed at least some of those pings to be relevant to the murder so they could use them so whatever actually happened, Jay made the pings relevant. That has seemed obvious to me pretty much all along by Jay's own willingness to lie and to do so on the stand trying to say that he was both at Jenn's until 3:45 ish and also with Adnan after seeing the body calling Jenn's house at 3:21 pm. the fact that he was not asked to identify the 'come and get me call' on the log even though he was asked to identify so many of the others and that his story for the call didn't match the log...those two things alone for Jay's testimony would probably have sealed the deal for me-dude is lying, I don't know why but he isn't credible for me. oh, and the moment I heard that the prosecution provided him an attorney...that would be it for me. I know longer trust anything coming out of his mouth. biased? probably, but just being honest.

Overall outcome: star witness is lying-throw out what he has to say.

8) there never being in 16 years and two podcast investigations any credible theory or even a scrap of evidence as strong as any of the above pointing to an alternate suspect.

I don't need an alternative. It may well have been Adnan. or it may have been someone else and we have no evidence of it b/c none was collected at the time. There might be evidence under her nails, there might not. The point for me is that (in my eyes) it just wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt it was him. There just isn't enough direct, irrefutable evidence.

I mean, honesty (and I know you may find this completely crazy) I don't think they even made a very convincing argument it happened in her car especially the bs about the passenger seat that came from nowhere but the prosecutions imagination.

TL:DR: some suspicious things for sure, a little circumstantial evidence, some reasonable doubt. reasonable doubt trumps the rest, if it exists, it wins and for me, it exists. I would have to vote not guilty.

/r/serialpodcast Thread Parent