Watch the Atlanta Hawks

My arguments may be all over the place but at least what I say has substance

The only things you have said that can be backed up statistically, aren't backed up by statistics. I have provided statistics that prove you wrong on virtually every point that you have made.

The only other statements you have made are ad hominem personal attacks about how I "dont watch games" and "am a bandwagon fan", are you failing miserably at reading comprehension.

And as for you having never said any of that, I was just doing the same thing back to you that you have done this entire conversation:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Thunder/comments/2y7ce3/watch_the_atlanta_hawks/cp9649c

http://www.reddit.com/r/Thunder/comments/2y7ce3/watch_the_atlanta_hawks/cp96ue6

http://www.reddit.com/r/Thunder/comments/2y7ce3/watch_the_atlanta_hawks/cp9d5cu

But for the road, to correct you on a few more statements you have made that, once again, are not backed up by facts:

The thunder are like tenth in the league in the amount of isolation they run

8th, with the 4th lowest eFG%

Westbrook isos a max of like 3 times a game

He runs exactly 3.88 a game, averaging well over a "max" of 3 a game. And, of the 25 players that have run over 100 ISO plays this year (at 13% of total possessions or greater), he ranks 3rd to last in eFG% from that play.

They aren't anywhere near as iso heavy since the traded Reggie Jackson either.

They lost Reggie, who ran ISOs at a clip of 13.7% (2 a game) and brought on Dion Waiters, who runs ISOs at a clip of 21.9%, at 3.07 a game (he has almost ran the same amount of ISO plays as Reggie did all year with the Thunder in over half as many games).

So, actually, they have ran more.

An by the way not getting a lot of assists, does not mean they run a lot of iso ball. There is no connection to be made there, your reaching and hating.

Not necessarily individually, no, but when you also factor in PnR Ball Handler possessions (which require 0 passes) as well as Transition possessions (which generally don't have passing), coupled with below average assists numbers across the board, it does show that they have below average ball movement as a team.

KD iso's on about half the percentage of possesions as other top players in the league.

With a limiting factor of 50 possessions, and counting "top iso players in the league" as those with an eFG% of 46% (As that just barely includes Klay Thompson and Lebron James), Durant runs it at a clip of 14.4%. That lands him 8th among the 23 players. The highest % is Harden at 26.3%, which is 13% less than "Half as much". Lebron is also up at 26.1% and then we see a sharp drop off. Durant runs ISO 1% less than Chris Paul, and more often than such players as Reggie Jackson, Derrick Rose, Monta Ellis, The Morris twins, and Terrence Ross. Durant runs ISO plays at almost double the rate of Victor Oladipo, and more than twice that of Serge Ibaka, Blake Griffin, Greg Monroe, and Dirk Nowitzi.

Also you made the statement the numbers don't back up your position and also said that we rune "one" offensive set. You can't actually watch the games if you believe what you are saying.

Again, I provided a video detailing an example of this happening, and you straw manned in into a ramble about Ibaka and High School basketball coaches.

Yes they run iso some, not alot, about 8 or 9 times a game. That's 4 plays a game more than the teams that run it the least.

Well, with ISO plays, it is about 4 a game, depending on the teams pace. Include (as I mentioned earlier, PnR plays where the ball handler drives/shoots, therefor not passing or having no effective passes that led to the shot) and you can see it adds up quickly. Also add in transition possessions and put back possessions - because those generally aren't necessarily ball-movement dependent possessions, and rather just talented individual or turnover based possessions - and here are the numbers with some of the league leaders:

Compared to some of the other great teams in the league, which all have a higher ORTG than the Thunder this year, as well as substantially higher TS%(compared to the Thunder with the +/- column):

Team ISO% OKC +/- Ball Handler% +/- Transition% +/- Put Back % +/- Total non-passing possession % +/-
OKC Thunder 9.3% - 17.9 - 16.2 - 6.3 - 49.7 -
SA Spurs 4.6 -4.7 14.8 -3.1 12.2 -4 4.1 -2.2 35.7 -14
GS Warriors 6.5 -2.8 11.8 -6.1 18.5 +2.3 5.5 -0.8 42.3 -7.4
ATL Hawks 7.4 -1.9 14.2 -3.7 14.4 -1.8 3.6 -2.7 39.6 -9.9
CLE Cavaliers 11.9 +2.6 17.1 -0.8 14.3 -1.9 5.5 -0.8 48.8 -0.9

Factor in the individual teams Pace (estimate of possessions per 48 minutes):

Team Pace % of plays not based on ball movement Number of plays/game not based on ball movement OKC +/-
OKC Thunder 95.2 49.7 47.3144 -
SA Spurs 93.8 35.7 33.4866 -13.8278
GS Warriors 98.6 42.3 41.7078 -5.6066
ATL Hawks 93.9 39.6 37.1844 -10.13
CLE Cavaliers 92.2 48.8 44.9936 -2.3208

The Thunder are averaging 7.9713 possessions with effective/efficient/existent passing fewer than these teams, which should all be considered "efficient" offenses.

His usage is way over regarded and talked about by people with no context, most of them don't even know how to put it in context. Russel uses about 2.5 more possesions a game than James Harden, hardly ridiculous.

Russ uses (37.5 USG% x 95.2 pace=) 35.7 possessions a game

Harden uses (30.9 USG% x 96.3 pace=) 29.76 possessions a game.

If you math, that's a difference of nearly 6 possessions per game. Not 2.5.

You're sitting here bitching about offense while the thunder have been a top 5 team in 2015 with the best offensive player in the league hurt, while being top 5 in all kinds of offensive categories, and an above average passing team.

Thunder currently the 10th best team in pts/game (one measure of offense) and the 14th best team in ORTG (another measure of offense). Neither of those are top 5. Care to provide another stat that I am not seeing?

7th in pace.

20th in TS%.

18th in eFG%.

10th in FT/FGA.

16th in TOV%.

18th in FG%.

21st in PoffTO

10th in PITP

In fact the only offensive categories that I can find that they rank in the top 5 are 4th in both FBP and ORB%. FBP we can expect with Reggie and Russell, but ORB% is amazing. Our big guys have always been known as "weak" but this year you can tell they really stepped up big time.

As for an "above average passing team" care to back that up with facts? Because the Thunder are:

22nd in total assists

29th in AST%

27th in 2-pt AST'd%

26th in 3-pt AST'd%

In fact, the only possible way to cut up the numbers to get the Thunder above average in any passing related stat is Dunk AST'd%, which the Thunder are 8th. Which is solid and again shows how great our big guys have been for us this year.

/r/Thunder Thread Parent