What Is and Is Not Metal.

The first wave (or "phase") of black metal consisted of bands such as Venom, Bathory and Celtic Frost. They were for a large part based on speed, thrash and even some folk metal (looking at Hammerheart-era Bathory). Though satanic imagery was introduced by Venom, same goes for the term "black metal", "church hating lyrics" were not an intrinsic part of first wave bm. Same goes for corpse paint, this was first introduced as a part of black metal imagery in the second wave of bm.

I never once stated 2nd wave didn't have anti-christian/church/religion lyrics.

I never once stated that corpse paint was limited to the 1st wave.

Maybe it was my fault by mentioning waves at all, but you are now the 2nd person to take a gigantic post, take a sentence out of context and act like you found a "gotcha".

That being said, both bands are considered metal (atleast from what I've seen on /r/metal), but the public opinion is that Agalloch is simply better than Deafheaven.

Deafheaven isn't straight up banned from /r/metal, but there is a much heavier debate as to whether they are metal or black metal, almost incessantly.

The rejection of Deafheaven, not as metal, but as band, has not so much anything to do with whom they got populair with, but with the fact that public opinion (within the metal circles) is that they are just not very good.

But why. under what metric? I mean we can Beavis and Butthead about what rules and what sucks all fucking day, but why.

Lyrical content has nothing to do with defining genres, case and point: bands like Horde and Antestor. These bands make indisputable black metal, but with Christian lyrical content, rather than the Satanic lyrics that were popularised during 2nd wave black metal.

I wouldn't say nothing. There's not a lot of metal bands talking about how hard it is living the gangster life on the street. There's not a lot of hip hop talking about satanism. You really wouldn't expect country music to sing about black lives matter.

While I follow your point that lyricism is probably the most fluid part of music, able to cross genres with a greater ease, than any other part of music - you can't be serious in denying certain cultural identifiers in subject matter as a generality?

The same goes for corpse paint, it's purely imagery. There are plenty of black metal bands that don't use corpse paint and on the other hand, there's no-one claiming Kiss and King Diamond are black metal (or at least I bloody hope there aren't).

I bring up corprse paint with Ghost ONLY as a response to the fact people have criticized Deafheaven for not wearing it, as a means to build the case that THEY aren't black metal. Going so far as to make pictures photoshopping the paint on their faces.

Their first album is certainly traditional metal/rock, already blurring the lines between the two genres

So then is Black Sabbath's s/t, and Paranoid and Master of Reality

The other two albums, on the other hand, are not. Because the majority and most recent of their work is not metal,

I stated as such.

they as a band are not either.

Maybe not. But you can see why they've be popular among metal fans, and why metal fans would want to talk about them in metal communities?

Enough of the criteria is there to the point that they don't fit anywhere else.

I am someone who likes metal and I enjoy other genres outside of metal like psychedelic rock and jazz. Am I going to discuss these artist in a metal community? No. Why?

But further down you talk about how you like Uncle Acid and I can pull up /r/metal threads right now that argue that Uncle Acid is just hard psch and not metal AT ALL. Here:

  1. (downvoted but still) https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/4cobni/uncle_acid_and_the_deadbeats_crystal_spiders/d1k5uqr
  2. https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/2s26cy/uncle_acid_and_the_deadbeats_deaths_door/cnmdgxu
  3. (downvoted) https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/1klnck/uncle_acid_and_the_deadbeats_deaths_door/cbq8ik5
  4. https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/1p2vrn/uncle_acid_the_deadbeats_mt_abraxas/ccy788u

there's one in particular I'm looking for and honestly unable to find it. Happened about a month ago and the popular consensus in there was "it's not metal, but metal heads love it so it's ok".

I, personally, think it's metal.

But see what i mean? Any band that flirts outside the lines, we have to have this big fucking discussion of what is or what isn't...when the OBVIOUS can be assumed that metal is a major influece, metal fans typically love it regardless of where it falls and that's why it's appropriate to talk about it in metal communities.

You think a general music discussion would be a better place? Maybe a psych rock forum? No - you want to talk where the fans fucking are.

And it's called groove metal.

I know this. And without it, there'd be no nu-metal.

Korn and Slipknot are nu-metal. This is a genre with many different musical unfluences, a large portion of which is hip-hop and rock.

People say "hip hop" all the time b/c these bands typically did songs with rappers. But very few of these bands actually rapped.

Korn covered an Ice Cube song, Otep actually raps. But no one is claming Crazy Town is somehow metal.

But again - the major influence throughout..is :::drum roll::: metal.

Somehow, Opeth can blend in blues, folk, and jazz. Agalloch can blend in folk and post-rock. And that's ok. But EEWWWWW hip hop.... and all of a sudden, a genre with "metal" in the fucking name..isn't metal.

Once again, a place for everything. The fact that many people knew who static-x was, does not mean /r/metal is the proper place to commemorate a nu-metal artist.

There's enough of a cross over both with musical styles and fanbase that it wouldn't be total and utter anarchy to allow it. What's the harm? Are you all so fucking autistic that all your underwear MUST come from K-mart?

Simply posting about David Bowie's death on /r/metal would also not go with what the sub is based around, but the link is literally talking about his influence on metal.

OOOOH SO INFLUENCES MATTER NOW. I was told during nu-metal and our Ghost discussion that INFLUENCES DON'T COUNT.

Once again, metal community. It's fine to talk about their music that is considered metal, but posting some of their new prog rock songs, not so much. /r/metal is simply not the place for it.

if people in /r/metal organized their local music in folders by the way they organize discussions, they'd never find anything that'd blur the lines b/c they'd never remember where the fuck they put it.

I have literally never seen bands like Pentagram or Black Sabbath being accused of not being meta

B/c i was talking about the current trad-doom movement.

MetalSucks is not a representation of the metal community, not a credible source and just a joke all around.

No - but those douchenozzles seem to have a tremendous amount of overlap with the type that's in /r/shitthefalsesay and /r/metal on a regular basis.

I really enjoy Blood Ceremony and Ruby the Hatchet, but they are psychedelic rock, not metal. SubRosa and Uncle Acid however, are certainly metal and also considered as such.

Ok dude. So..Uncle Acid is metal. But Blood Ceremony isn't? Here - let me quote you back to yourself.

generally accepted definition of Metal as "being able to be traced back to Black Sabbath as main influence".

How exactly does that, at least, not apply to Blood Ceremony? Blood Ceremony has 2, read it, 2 major influences. Sabbath and Tull. That's it. It meets your own god damned made up criteria.

How exactly?

Are you telling me you haven't heard years and years of people referring to Baroness, Mastodon and Metallica as "hard rock"? Not trying to be a dick (in this case) but what rock did you crawl out from under? I can even wrap my head around the number of times i've heard people say "X band isn't metal anymore".

Metallica, Slayer, Maiden; all still considered metal, though having incredible popularity, also in mainstream media

Between Black albums and Re-load, i'd say Metallica was kicked out of the club and only somewhat reluctantly let back in due to St Anger and their latest.

I'd also argue that the metal community would never allow another Slayer, Maiden or Metallica to happen in a modern context.

/r/LetsTalkMusic Thread Parent