The Goblin is the new class, it just makes Creeper redundant.

If the Goblin is the new class, that has the sole intention of destroying shit, then how does that make the damage creeper redundant? Like taking away a class that has no relation to the replaced one seems rather strange.

Games are meant to be 45 Minutes to an Hour long, the average changes depending on the map. Maps that favour Dwarves (Like Delphia, Grapevine, Nolrim) persistently exceed this time and get a large number of kills, this is mainly due to the latter parts of the maps allowing for extensive and defendable Proc Halls to be built.

Change the maps. Anyway you are exaggerating the duration of most of the games. The only reason you think the length is longer, is because the same spots have to be held every time, and as there are few of them if makes progression seem slow. The reason for this is not because of kill-farming dwarves or god forbid people choosing damage creepers but it is just the AIs make it near impossible to fight and get procs in open ground.

If Goblins sole purpose was destroying defences then these maps would be hitting the average. And you are forgetting that the Goblin update will happen in tandem with a range of other updates so it will be balanced around that rather than the current game.

If Goblins sole purpose was destroying defences then these maps would be hitting the average.

You realise that the average means the average of the games played, which would suggest that most games are close to the average.

the Goblin update will happen in tandem with a range of other updates so it will be balanced around that rather than the current game.

The majority of creeper kills are on players that would have died regardless. Most Creeper players target bleeding Dwarves who probably would have died to other Mobs anyway.

Holy fuck. Creepers are getting the kills BEFORE the other mobs, making them the reason that the mobs are progressing. And of course the dwarves would die eventually, because that it the meaning of the game, but if your argument against creepers is that they kill faster but some fucking how also make progression slower then you are going the wrong way about it.

This is more likely at the end of a game when the gold has run out and more players die from broken armour.

Yeah sure in the last moments of the game when armour is low creepers get most of the kills. But before the gold update and even after (before it runs out) you still saw/see creepers getting the kills in the end game, purely because of the amount of instant damage they do. Damage creepers help progression far more than you realise and getting rid of them, even in a future, differently balanced game would be harmful. That is of course assuming that dwarves are still OP compared to mobs. The best way to kill a dwarf will always be to damage them faster than they can heal, and damage creepers will always be the best option for that, as long as they retain the amount of damage they do.

I'd argue that if Knockback creepers were removed, you'd actually see more players dying. In the rare instance the KB of a Creeper blast puts a Dwarf in a difficult position you'd probably see 20 other instances of a Creeper launching a Dwarf in a direction beneficial to the Dwarf.

That is true in some cases, and it would help the damage creepers in the end game. However I cannot see how this helps you argument for goblins, oh well.

Not to mention the Creeper Damage is only enough to remove the absorption hearts from a Procing Dwarf, which can quickly be recovered as AI's are affected by KB as well and mostly go in the same direction.

That is why you see damage creepers target those without procs that are being surrounded trying to get a proc. I can't see any other mob doing anything against a proccing dwarf, apart from a golem of course. The creeper with KB has the best chance of stopping a proccing dwarf.

And by far, the majority of kills in a game is still held by Zombies.

And this is why I said at the end game. There is a reason for that. Because dwarves and mobs are forced into small, enclosed spaces where creepers have the best chance of inflicting serious damage, and where multiple creepers can all explode in a short time period and not having to worry about the dwarf going too far. It also helps that the main mob in the game is the zombie, and that there are literally hundreds of them.

I believe the intention is to remove the knockback and reduce the damage of the Goblin, this is to shift the focus back onto destruction.

This is what I am sad about. you get rid of the damage creeper, and replace it with something of a different intention. What is the point? Why not keep the damage creeper, and change the destruction creeper to a goblin, that way you aren't changing the fundamentals of the game.

With the addition of the Side Rotation the chance of 2 hour long games went up significantly. Back on PMC there were probably more 2 hour long Nolrim Games then one hour ones. And my only 3 hour game was on H'Cet War, and since that is included in the side rotation it is a possibility.

This is the exact reason for the gold change, it doesn't justify getting rid of damage creepers as without them, games would probably be considerably longer.

Also the problem you are experiencing with progression isn't anything to do with the mechanics of the game. It is the map itself and the people who play it.

And it isn't even map dependent, all it takes is some good Heroes or a good set of Dwarves and the game time goes up significantly.

A lot of it is map dependant. If you have good heroes then yea it's going to make the game longer. If you have good dwarves and heroes on war, you get a long game, which might exceed 2hr. If you get good dwarves and heroes on raenil or the space map, then it might exceed 1hr. Maybe not. So again, the map is the problem, not the mechanics of the game. No need to get rid of damage creepers because one game got over 2hr on nolrim.

DvZ has always been balanced around larger games, this means that good games should be closer to the average then games with less than 50 players. Playing as a mob can become tedious even in an average game, games that run over an hour just become boring as you get stuck on one section of a map for excessive amounts of time because there aren't enough Destruction Creepers removing their defences in order to progress.

I've touched upon this above, about how the number of fighting areas are much less, therefore creating the illusion of prolonged fighting. The destruction creepers sure help against the defences but at the end of the day the ones who get the kills in these spaces are the damage creepers, therefore making it much easier to progress.

The gold situation is entirely Dwarf dependent. If players don't gather a lot of gold at the start of the game then it will run out, If they don't efficiently manage gold usage then it runs out, if they aren't scavenging as much gold as they're using then it would run out.

The point about gold is that if a game is running long, it will always run out and have the desired affect of ending the game abruptly. This has significantly reduced the amount of long, tedious games. This just shows how much it has helped the monsters though, as without it the games would be running on for much longer.

This is no different to building walls. If they don't build a forward wall they can't hold first, if they don't build PROC Halls they can't hold that section of the map.

This is no different to building walls. If they don't build a forward wall they can't hold first, if they don't build PROC Halls they can't hold that section of the map. Exhausting gold supplies and removing defences is more important then getting kills

Killing the dwaves is the goal for the mobs, end of. Removing damage creepers is taking away a primary asset in the fight against dwarves. Removing it and replacing it with destruction creepers will ultimately result in worse progression for the monsters. Think about it. The hardest place for the mobs to take is the final shrine. While holding the final shrine for dwarves is difficult without proper defences, it is near fucking impossible to do for a long time with damage creepers. They are the key factor to many dwarf kills in the final shrine, whether the dwarves they are up against are good or not. Without them, you will have destruction goblins blowing up defences and then what? Wait until a bunch of skeles and zombie finish up the dwarves in a lit place doing tiny bits of damage one at a time with hundreds of ais all getting in the way of each other? Yeah sounds excellent for progression.

because at the end of the day if good players are the only ones still alive and they have a lot of gold and good defences they will hold the shrine as long as they like.

But they can't. With the introduction of the new gold system they can't hold it for a considerable amount of time. It has had the desired affect. Nobody looked towards defences when trying to explain the long games before, that is because it is a non issue.

Mobs that specialize in these factors are needed.

Except they are most certainly not. Gold is already favouring the mobs and the defences are just fine and hardly cause any issues. What will cause issues and will negatively affect your beloved progression is removing damage creepers, for a mob that most likely will hardly ever be used because people like getting kills and also for a mob that is not needed.