... Looks at wall of text. Whatever you say man. I didn't know refuting is the same thing as getting worked up. Guess you learn something every day. Have you read the LNs? Because 8man had never described Yukino in a negative view. Never. If that isn't idealism, I don't know what is. You know that 8man tends to push blame onto himself rather than others right? He takes more than he should, and sadly he's fine with it. That's why he was okay with the social suicide approach. So, in his conflicts with Yukino, he felt he was in the wrong. Also, you typically analyze characters from an outside view, so I'm not sure why you're referencing 8man's point of view to begin with. How is that idealism? Submissive: Don't really know where you got that from. I don't remember any scenes where she gets pushed around. In fact, she's more proactive than the others. Cute: That become a plot point for the "I hate nice girls" speech and why 8man rejects her advances. Self-worth generation machine: I have no idea what you mean by that. Being upbeat/happy? Well, that's how she deals with things. Just like Yukino deals with things by putting them below her/ignoring them. Let's see here. Submissive: Albeit for a couple times, she never really does speak out for herself, you said it yourself. Cute: That's probably the most redeemable trait to her character. Just acting cute. Self-Worth generation machine: It's exactly what it says. She never comes into any conflict with the MC, and perfectly content with serving and praising him. I'd say this works pretty well with your self-insert "joke" too. Of course, why would you acknowledge a point that hurts your argument? Citation needed. She's a goddess to her class, don't know what you're talking about. You do realize that was a huge part of her past, right? She literally explains in the first episode that she was at odds with the girls in junior high. Hmm, let's see: "I hate nice girls", where she had to reconcile with the group. "I'll beat Yukino", where she finally wanted something for herself. "Genuine" scene, which was basically growth for everyone. And let's not forget when every time 8man and Yukino had a conflict, she was their to bridge the gap. It seems you don't understand what character development is. It either refers to characterizing someone further by attributing traits and depth to them and their background or having them be dynamic throughout the story. Yui has remained almost entirely the same since the beginning of the series and was never that complex. Therefore, the only example you brought up that actually worked was that she wanted to "beat Yukino". Even that was pretty minor. Already said "too nice". What? Because I like people who work hard for their goals. I also like to see hard work rewarded. Being upbeat and happy is a nice touch as well. Also works nice into the theme of 8man getting his old life back. "Hard work". Sure she helped with getting 8man and Yukino from retreating into their shells, but "hard work"? Ok then, whatever you say man. I also established that I don't think 8man actually wants to get his old life back, hence the reason he was so shocked to see Orimoto and why he has buried it in his memories. He simply is learning to adjust back to society. And compare it to the number of people shitting on Iroha and Yui. Yep, that's right, a lot more. Uh, are we reading the same threads? Because the Yukino posts are much higher rated than the others. We're certainly not reading the same threads at all, not that it matters much anyway. I understand that you want to continue being a victim though, so I'll let it slide. I thought the crossing off would have easily explained the joke. I guess some people need the /s then? Whatever, if you seriously thought I was being serious... You have a great taste of humor. Also, everybody know sarcasm translates well over the internet, right? Want me to break it down even more? Yukino is a worse Senjougahara, considering Yukino almost never shows her dere side, and Hitagi had a much worse problem. Iroha isn't used as much, but the "mischievous female" character is pretty prevalent. Yui is an archetype too, the genki. This series isn't that different from the others. It just has better characters than most. ...How is this even relevant to what I was talking about? You mentioned Iroha and Yukino to be generic, I stated that they certainly aren't limited to their archetypes and had actual growth. Not sure where you're going with this. Ad Hominem: An attack on the person instead of the argument. I'm pretty sure I didn't attack you, only associated you. It would be a fallacy if I compared you to them, and then said your statement is invalid. But I didn't. It can't be helped that is sounds very similar to them. Well, besides the fact that it was completely irrelevant to what I had said, and that you associated me with them off the assumption that I even cared about the poll to begin with, I'd say that can be categorized as an ad hominem argument. Ad hominem also refers to, "subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument." Let me quote you: "I would appreciate an answer." And so I answered. You wanted an answer, I gave you one. Not accepting it and calling it salt is your own fault then. Nah, it's more the way you ended your post that heavily implies the salt behind it. Not sure how you got the impression that I didn't "accept" your argument (whatever that means). Well, you have a new account, and that was your only post. I guess I you weren't bait, so have an apology. <3