...Sorry, but I have to move on with my day.
My reply to your original comment here and those following were only made within the context of zen practice; not intellectual debate or even casual discussion.
Without wanting to seem coy or cute, what we've been discussing here is (to me) more a quandary or conundrum than a simple question which invites some sort of factual, definitive answer.
For me, those sorts of complex questions are matters for meditative observation rather than discussion.
I invite you to pursue any issues raised in our talk that seem of value to you within the context of your meditation practice as you see fit and see where that goes.