I can't claim to have read every word from every article you posted. I read the first couple, skimmed the next couple, and read the last one. The first several articles all say effectively "we don't believe the number of "reported" DGU's each year, b/c we can't fact check it". This is something I granted you from the very beginning. We need to collect verifiable and accurate statistics so we can make informed decisions. I agree that the "reported" numbers seem extremely high. Although the sub-1000 seems (to me) extremely low. Its really impossible to use these numbers in an argument b/c we truly just have no idea what they are. 1st step, track and report this number!
But, that's why I wanted to start with a concept to try to build common ground. I didn't throw out numbers, I threw out a hypothetical. My argument was not intended to be misleading. Guns are verifiably used in defense every year, we just don't have the accurate numbers. You say "guns do not save lives, even in self defense they still kill and maim"
Defensive gun use, nobody killed or maimed. When you speak in absolutes, you can be proved wrong with a single example. When you don't speak in absolutes, you leave wiggle room in your point of view. Wiggle room is good though, b/c generally neither side is 100% correct in an argument. Not when both sides are reasonable people with good intentions anyway...
And the fact is, DGU that ends in someone dead is still a net positive for society. If it wasn't, the police wouldn't have guns either. As a society, we accept that people can be stopped with deadly force in certain situations, weather by police or citizens. You can't discount that b/c you don't like guns.
To sum up how I'm interpreting your response to my "red herring" (i disagree...) argument: There are not enough instances of DGU each year to justify the number of suicides.
You may write me off at this point for not agreeing that my argument is a red herring and pushing the issue, but I feel I'm addressing your points, and I'd like you to address mine.
How many verifiable instances of DGU would it take for you to consider the number of suicides to be "worth it"? Is there a number?