Unofficial Offseason Change My View thread

This is gonna rake in downvotes but it is absolutely dumb to say Kobe is a fringe top 10 guy (I'm interpreting this as a career perspective and not "who is the most talented at bball perspective).

In no particular order I'd say your top 10 looks something like MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Bill, Magic, Bird, Duncan, LeBron, Oscar, Shaq and Hakeem.

The only argument Oscar has over Kobe is the triple-double, with that logic you might as well put him over Magic and Bird as well.

Bird put up better all around numbers but Kobe has won more titles and accolades across the board. Kobe had Shaq for 3 titles, but Bird had McHale, Parish+an ultra-deep supporting cast for his 3 titles. They also have the same number of FMVP.

Magic and Kobe have the same number of rings, Magic has better passing and rebounding numbers but Kobe blows him out of the water in scoring and defense. Magic has 3 FMVP compared to Kobe's 2, but Magic also had an elite supporting cast just as Kobe had Shaq for 3 titles.

The argument for Bird and Magic over Kobe is MVPs. IMO this is irrelevant, Kobe would easily win 2-3 MVPs if he had the same supporting cast as Magic or Bird, and with a worse supporting cast in 08-10 he still won championships. I think that neither Bird nor Magic have anything that creates great separation between them and Kobe.

I'm gonna get shit for the especially but Duncan and Kobe each have 5 rings, multiple FMVPs, and tons of regular season success. I don't think the Spurs continually making the playoffs is a big separator. With any of the guys in the top 10 you can put an average supporting cast and have a perennial contender. I have no problem putting Duncan slightly above Kobe, but again I don't think regular season success (that didn't even result in more postseason success) is a big separator.

Hakeem's titles are impressive but IMO overrated. Imagine if LeBron retired after 2013, KD won an MVP and two titles, then LeBron returned and proceeded to rip off the two greatest seasons ever and 3peated, while KD never made another Finals. Nobody in their right mind would call KD's two rings as legitimate as they would be if LeBron was around. I think you only have to beat who's in front of you, but you can't pretend that the consensus best player in the world being retired does not cast doubt on those titles. Kobe was just as good longevity- and peak-wise while achieving significantly more postseason success and didn't have that stigma attached to his rings.

If you mean in terms of raw basketball skills most of the big men shoot straight to the top, but an ultra-athletic guard with excellent handles, ability to create and make shots under pressure, can score from anywhere in the half court, excellent footwork, great post-game, good passing skills, great man-to-man defense and unrivaled volume scoring is going to be comfortably top-10.

/r/nba Thread Parent