Yeah, thanks for telling me something I'm quite aware of. Where did I suggest that 'person' does mean 'individual'?
Didn't mean to offend you. It just sounded like you were seeing them as pretty "separate"; my mistake.
What does torture have to do with this? It's the spilling of blood which signifies the giving of life that is key, not a certain degree of pain.
Crucifixion is torture.
You're assuming that the debt can simply be cancelled. What evidence is there for this? Hebrews 9:22 seems to be quite unambiguous that the debt could not simply be cancelled.
Because, for starters, that's what forgive means. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." This line from the Lord's Prayer doesn't mean that by "forgive" we really mean, "well, someone has to pay!"
He. 9.22 has nothing to do with whether or not debt can be canceled.
How is that relevant? We're talking about the way we forgive, not the way God forgives. Why do you assume they are the same?
Because, the whole point of our faith, of ethics, of Law, of the Sermon on the Mount, is for us to become one with God; for us to reflect his characteristics, for us to be like our Father in heaven (to borrow a line from Jesus himself). God doesn't tell us to behave one way, and then himself behave a way that is contrary to his teachings regarding our behavior.
His forgiveness is different.
I disagree (and we could get into that whole imputed/imparted righteousness argument, but here is not the place for that).
Instead God is bearing the penalty for Alice's sins against God, so there is no unrelated third party being punished here.
So, back to my point - God punishes himself? God says, "In order for me to really forgive these people, they gotta pay up, they gotta be punished. But since they can't pay up, I'm going to go be one of them myself, and I'm going to punish myself so I can forgive them. I'm going to pour out my wrath upon myself; yeah, that's what I'll do. That way there will be payment made, so I can forgive them. Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm going to teach them that this is SO not the way they should behave. I mean, yeah, they should be like me, but when it comes to forgiveness, they should kind of sort of out-do me in that department. I forgive after I'm paid back or mete out punishment; but they'll have to forgive and by that I mean really forgive and not count others sins against them. Damn! I hope I can convince that Paul guy to not put anything in his writings that might make people think that *I function like that too. I'll have to be sure and tell him to leave out 2 Corinthians 5.19."
Bob has sins of his own that need to pay for, so he couldn't pay for Alice's, whereas Jesus is innocent and has no sins of his own that need to be paid for, making him uniquely able to pay for Alice's.
Unless, you know, God were to act the way he tells us to act and say, "You know what guys, I can actually forgive you and cancel the debt."