Hi, this is going to be a lengthy response, hoping to help you! :)
Hello everyone! Okay I read something a farmer said and now I feel really bad about having to ask an opinion about it on Reddit because I should think for myself, but well.
Don't worry, you thought for yourself and came to the conclusion that you want to consult with people who have the same set of morals etc. That's what we, this community/this movement, are here for - to support each other :)
I am new on veganism so I don't know that much about it, recently I read these conversations and I really think it's important information so please read if you can and thanks
let's go
First 1. OP: eating plant-based is the only way my body feels good and also the only way that i feel like a responsible creature on this planet Poster: u can ethically farm with animals, have faith this exists, we don't have to ignore domesticated animals i promise!!
OP said one feels good eating plant-based, noone can take away this "feeling" Feeling like a responsible person just comes down to a fact check - and since we all know it - yes, it's logical to "feel like a responsible creature" eating plant-based. It's a start for sure.
"You can ethically farm with animals" - No, you can not. This statement already accepts the fact that living beings are turned into commodities, that's just slavery. NOT ETHICAL.
"Have faith this exists" - Oh my, where do I even start? This is a discussion that should be based on facts sigh If I want to "have faith" I'll go in a church or something - that's laughable to even mention in a discussion.
I don't even understand the domesticated animals part - let's move on.
OP: i know but the ecological effects of meat consumption in the public are undeniable :/ Poster: yeah but i think the problem is ALL industrial agriculture
OP has a valid point, Poster tries to generalize the issue. animal agriculture is most def. worse than plant agriculture and should therefore ALWAYS be first choice. I think that is a fallacy of the following kind: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
OP: if we could ethically farm it would be really cool but we can’t support the meat/dairy demands of most of the pop. by doing that Poster: large scale farming plants is JUST as unethical
"large scale farming plants is JUST as unethical" - That's just horse shit.
OP: i agree, but the vast majority of large scale farming plants goes to feed animal agriculture Poster: i am really scared about domesticated food animals and how vegans and vegetarians ignore them
Again, I don't really understand what Poster is trying to say there, feel free to clarify - he avoids your argument though - trying to find something else to "win" on.
2nd one. In this conversation, the Poster becomes the OP. OP: a big reason i'm not vegan is i have faith that we can coexist with other species in a way that doesn't exploit or harm them, i have faith. bees make our fruit, we cannot simply abstain from honey and think we are avoiding the exploitation of bees, this is not how we save bees. if you are buying imported conventionally grown gmo foods that are vegan, you are NOT helping to improve the world like you think you are. Posters: it still decreases the demand for animal products, which use significantly more water and non renewable resources to produce
"have faith" shaking my head already. Now he starts with "coexist with other species in a way that doesn't exploit and harm", then again "i have faith" oh my god - "we cannot simply abstain.." yes we can, OP TRIES to find a valid reason to exploit bees, but hasn't any, pitiful attempt.
followed up by "if you are buying imported conventionally grown gmo foods that are vegan, you are NOT helping to improve the world like you think you are."
Um, yes, you do - in fact. He makes a claim and he has to back that up with information/sources/proof.
OP: animal products are used in fertilizers to grow our non animal products too Posters: but.. not eating meat/dairy still reduces the demand rather than eating both
It's 2016 - there is NO NEED to fertilize plants with SHIT - make sure to read up on that, OP still lives in 1900 You/Posters completely ignored his point, trying to be "but..still :( "
OP: but it doesn't actually stop those practises from continuing, if you support a small farmer for eggs and milk, though,,, Posters: i have to disagree, the market is all about supply and demand. The less demanded, the less supplied. Obviously the vegan movement isn't huge yet but it's growing. Getting eggs and dairy locally elps too but isn't even an option for some people. I just hate to see the vegan movement discredited because I believe it can make a difference.
Yes, it DOES stop those practices from continuing - it's a market - the market is driven by supply and demand...jesus this guy is stupid. "If you support a small farmer..." - You still pay for: commodification, slavery, immoral practises, the destruction and unnecessary pollution of our environment. Abolish that. REALLY SIMPLE. Just read your response, great you also mentioned supply and demand...the "I believe" at the end annoys me. There's no belief in this discussion, those are simple economical FACTS & LAWS.
OP: veganism is necessarily collusive with capitalism and cannot stand outside of a shitty model of oil dependency and globalization. it has never existed outside of capitalism, can you survive on a local vegan diet can you grow vegetables without blood and bone, the alternative to animal fertilizers is synthetic fertilizers that are not a long term solution. Posters: yeah those are valid points. I can't revolutionize global societies immediately, but I can change my diet immediately,
What the fuck is OP talking about now? Again, it's 2016, we LIVE in capitalism, free market and HUGE globalization - how does he think that any of the arguments he mentions actually backs up his claims? And again he mentions fertilizers, I advise you to look closer into this topic if you decide to argue with meatards about "fertilization" of plants. It shouldn't even go this far. There are so many reasons upfront, making this discussion obsolete.
Posters reply is sadly really duck-ish and doesn't analyze OP's argument at all... It's really easy to dismantle OP's bullshit
OP: yeah, but suggesting abstinence rather than proper usage seems like, not the right way to do things Posters: I think both are viable solutions to work towards better societies and a better world..
Em...what??? Let me quickly put this in context with an example: "Suggesting to abolish slavery, rather than proper usage seems like not the right way to do things" - Is he out of his fucking mind?
Again, I really can't understand how posters response is so weak - he's full of shit, expose that.
OP: abstaining just doesn't help others do the right thing, it also doesn't ensure the right thing happens globally, just doesn't make logical sense, oil will run out, we will need to use animals in a holistic sense again, i support those farms
Bullshit bullshit bullshit - OP suggests that plant agriculture consumes more oil and other resources - this is getting ri-fucking-diculous.
End. I read about sustainable ethical food sources, sustainable farming and I SO agree with the fact that all industral agriculture is bad but lol does this person even know the consequences of eating meat? Drinking milk? Or how much is livestock ruining the enviroment? I mean, to say those things in social media, because the person is privileged to eat only organic or from local farms, not everyone can do that, I can't and I'm sorry, I'm willing to. Even if the industry wasn't fucked up I don't see why would someone want to kill animals so bad. I get you can't be 100% vegan but it's about doing your best and I almost agree with this person saying being vegan is not the best we can do. :/
Notes for you in the future: Sit down, take your time to READ into what arguments people try to make and dismantle them, stop backing down so much.
Keep an eye out for "I believe" "Faith" etc. That's just riddled with BS and any religious-y touched argument has place in a discussion based on facts.
You completely dismissed the ethical side of things, too.