Bakers are not involved in a wedding. They provide a cake that is used at the after party.
And go into meetings about it, design it, make it to the specification, do the planning, etc.
Which is de facto homophobic discrimination.
Not at all. It's religion, your rules don't apply here. Go ahead and argue to an Imam that opposes a Muslim marrying a kuffar.
None of those issues is remotely comparible to being gay.
Their belief is marriage is defined BY GOD as ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN, period, full stop, do not argue, do not whine political correctness, do not collect $200. So if you want to impose your religion on them, go ahead. But you'll have to eliminate the first amendment, first.
No. That would be a different product entirely. The thing asked for is the same product (a wedding cake) and the denial is based on prejudice.
Not at all, the Memories pizza said they'd be happy to sell pizza to whoever, just NOT GO AHEAD AND GET INVOLVED IN A GAY WEDDING.
This would be acceptable and enable progress for the betterment of society.
You don't get to define what religion is, sorry.
They chose to the moment they provide wedding services.
They do not have to abandon their religion just because they sell cakes.
Don't want to participate in weddings? Don't open up a service for weddings.
More like, don't want to participate in GAY weddings, so sell cakes to any type of wedding but a gay one. Problem solved.
Simple common sense. And over step the mark? In what way. I just showed the parallels between being a racist and being homophobic.
Nope. Not at all. Because, and I know you're blinded by your own homosexuality here: the difference is not selling to a wedding that happens to have people in it of a certain type (discrimination) and not participating in a CERTAIN TYPE OF EVENT. If I choose not to lend my PA equipment to a Nazi Power white racist event because I disagree strongly about bigotry and consider it a sin, these shaven headed idiots can step off. Likewise, if someone considers a marriage between two men to be, like a Satanic Mass is, a mockery and parody of a sacrament, legally, tough crap to you.
If you don't like the mirror held up then it might be time for a reassessment of your values.
TL:DR "to hell with the First Amendment, everyone needs to believe as I do". Got it.
Wait are you now claiming that homophobia doesn't happen?
That's not what I said, nice strawman. I said they couldn't find someone who wouldn't sell something off the shelf because the person buying it happened to be gay. Believe me, the media tried.
Well that's rubbish. You've advocated for that treatment (even if playing devils advocate) the entire time you've messaged me.
Not at all. I said clearly I didn't agree with it, but I had to respect someone else's right of conscience.
I set out the same scenario with gay people replaced with black people.
Which is not equivalent.
Not when it is a civil event.
Argue that to them, and see if they change their mind.
Also if some people find some marriages unsacremental and refuse to do them don't open a wedding related business.
What we might end up with is what happened in Alabama: NOBODY doing weddings.
It's denial of service. The bakers are telling them they cannot have it.
"I'm not assisting at a gay wedding". Same as a Catholic saying "I'm not performing an abortion", a Hindu saying "I'm not cooking you steak" and a Muslim saying "I'm not making you bacon."
Replace gay people with black people and see if it still sounds like a good argument.
It's NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. LGBT people suffer from all sorts of discrimination every day and have done for years.
NOT IN THIS INSTANCE. I realize gays have been bashed, have had other injustices, but let me reiterate clearly and spectacularly: not one person has gone in, said "can I have that cake" and been told "no, I won't sell it to you". What HAS happened is two women have walked in saying "we want you to be with us and help cater our gay wedding and do this with us" and been asked to seek elsewhere for their needs. HUGE difference.
Because, listen to me EXTREMELY CLEARLY, of the NATURE of the SACRAMENT and the religious view about how that works, not because (even if they might personally think that way) "I'm not selling to a lesbian".
You to claim this has not happened shows you are a liar or a fool. Take your pick.
I'm neither. The fact that you keep trying to change the argument to "LGBT people are so oppressed" and "it's JUST LIKE RACE" shows that you're either an activist or an idiot. Take YOUR pick.
No it's more like 'I don't want to be treated as second class'.
Then, here's an insane idea, GO TAKE YOUR BUSINESS TO SOMEONE WHO WILL TREAT YOU FIRST CLASS. But no, going to the news, demanding people do things your way... etc. Because it's not enough you get your cake, it's that you want everyone to be forced to agree with your lifestyle.
Most of your argument has been incoherent,irrelevant or flat out wrong. It's hardly surprising.
No, you're just literally too gay to read this coherently.
Which descring something as immutable does not contradict.
Oh, it's not fluid when you don't want it to be.
You are clueless! The entire gay rights movement has came about because gay people have been denied things for centuries.
Centuries ago is not now.
Not heard of a little thing called marriage equality brought about because gay people were denied marriage for being gay?
Well, they can go do what they want now, what they can't do is force people of faith to agree with them. So sorry, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone agrees with me either, I'm not going to go cry about it. Sheesh.
Or the entire reason for this thread which came about because of people denying gay people services?
No, it's denying someone a gay service. Not a service to gay people, but a specifically gay service.
It is them that chose to open a wedding shop. It is them that discriminate against others and impact on them. Gay people have no need to stop doing anything in this situation.
Well, go ahead and draw the battle lines, and fight for the sake of fighting.
Tell them what? They should expect to be treated as second class? Their families should accept they will be persecuted?
Nope.
No it's more like: Open a business? Expect to obey all the laws associated with running a business.
The first amendment. Read it. That's the law.
I'd hate to see when you are opposed to something. It comes across as nothing more than hostile when you advocate for bigotry.
Nope, I'm advocating for people, including you, not to be forced to go against your principles. I don't want them preventing you from getting married, and I don't want you demanding they stand there participating in that wedding.
In not one wedding I've been to have they ever invited a baker because they made their cake. Making a cake for the reception is not participation at all.
Not to the wedding, to the MANY meetings, discussions, etc. beforehand.
It is not childish to expect equal treatment in society.
It's childish to expect everyone to respect your views. Even mine.
You also speak as someone clueless and unqualified to speak on this subject.
I speak as someone who follows the Golden Rule. I take it you aren't a Christian, just someone who comes here to bait people and get angry.
Yeah you'd be the one on the bus telling rosa parks just to sit where she was told to.
No, I wouldn't be.
It is not being a jerk expecting my family to be treated the same as anyone else.
Would you want me to compel you to provide services for an anti-gay marriage rally? To hold a sign at the protest and chant "down with queers?"
It is also not being a jerk standing up to those who will persecute them.
Again, I'm done talking to you, because you aren't a Christian.